Author Topic: Hadley Centre hacked.  (Read 35371 times)

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Offline WeatherOp

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Just caught wind of this, very very interesting.

http://www.easternuswx.com/bb/index.php?showtopic=212689&st=0

Note, this is a link to a forum so you actually have to look through it to understand it. Just seeing it myself, so I haven't read most of it yet.
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Offline Liberator

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After having read the article and the links from it my response can only be:

 :wakka: :ha:
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline BloodEagle

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Can I has summary?

 

Offline WeatherOp

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    • http://www.geocities.com/weather_op/pageone.html?1113100476773
Can I has summary?

Apparently a Russian hacker hacked the Hadley Centre(Climate Change based, and a huge global warming supporter) and stole ~120mbs of Emails from the past 9 years and leaked it all online. But, the real meat is what was said between the scientists who were very big named. Now the question is whether or not it is all true, but it does look to have quiet a bit behind it now and we will know all about it in the next few days and it's validity.

The big one right now is this email.

Quote
From: Phil Jones
To: ray bradley ,[email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Diagram for WMO Statement
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 13:31:15 +0000
Cc: [email protected],[email protected]

Dear Ray, Mike and Malcolm,
Once Tim's got a diagram here we'll send that either later today or
first thing tomorrow.
I've just completed Mike's Nature trick of adding in the real temps
to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) amd from
1961 for Keith's to hide the decline.
Mike's series got the annual
land and marine values while the other two got April-Sept for NH land
N of 20N. The latter two are real for 1999, while the estimate for 1999
for NH combined is +0.44C wrt 61-90. The Global estimate for 1999 with
data through Oct is +0.35C cf. 0.57 for 1998.
Thanks for the comments, Ray.

Cheers
Phil

Prof. Phil Jones
Climatic Research Unit Telephone +44 (0) 1603 592090
School of Environmental Sciences Fax +44 (0) 1603 507784
University of East Anglia
Norwich Email [email protected]
NR4 7TJ
UK
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Offline General Battuta

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Man, if this is real, it is a sad day for science.

EDIT: Okay, read it over, it looks rather ambiguous. Going to wait for commentary from a neutral source.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2009, 12:19:23 am by General Battuta »

 

Offline Liberator

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There is no neutral source.  That's the rub.  Everyone that you would think is "neutral" has a stake in proving these documents false.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Why?

I don't have a particular stance on global warming.

My concern is more of that the 'damning statements' have simply been cherrypicked.

 

Offline Fenrir

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It'll be interesting to see how this turns out.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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My personal concern is not whether or not global warming is actually happening or not, nor whether or not we are affecting it.

My concern is this: what if it IS happening, and what if humankind's actions are the main (or even strongly contributing) reason behind it?

I see much less risk from trying to minimize the effects on climate compared to wishing for the best by believing that nothing is wrong and that even if global climate change is going on we couldn't do anything about it.

The risks of tryign to minimize the climate change are economical expenses from trying, and possibly failing at it. Benefits would be continued status quo, or possibly taking the sharpest edge off from an inevitable change, giving us more time to adapt to the changed climate. After all, barring Venusian style climate change, the change itself is not the problem but it's rate is.

On the other hand, we keep going on as we are, and it turns out the climate does change, rapidly, and for the worse, and we have a cluster**** of unseen proportions falling over the humanity, resulting in a lot of human suffering, economic breakdown, loss of infrastructure and lives. This is the worst case scenario and in my opinion, the risks of this far outweigh the risks of actually trying to affect thigns a bit.

People equipped with rational thought know this, and combined with the fact that an economy that requires perpetual growth cannot work forever with limited resources, it would be better for long term to just put limiters of some sort in place for stuff like rate of consuming fossile fuels, no matter whether the climate is changing or not.


Of course, there's a logical conundrum there; by this logic, anyone could postulate all kinds of horrible things and say that it is better to prepare for them than not to prepare for them, but then such is the case of all risk analysis. Building a meteor shield for your home is by all statistical analysis a loss of resources in all practical sense. Building a Geofront against the invasion of powerful alien species would be folly considering we don't even know of any viable way for interstellar travel. The thing is, though, that the hypothesis of global climate change to warmer environment has some rather compelling evidence to make it plausible.

First and most important is that Earth is currently in an ice age. There are polar ice caps, and this is very unusual in geological timeframes. Most of the time Earth has existed, there have been no ice caps and climate has been a lot warmer than in the pleistocene era. On the other hand, it's equally possible that we are in a period between more powerful glaciations and that there would be another ice age behind the corner. This possibility should never be denied when talking about climate changes. Also, it is good to keep in mind that the climate is essentially a very chaotic system with too many variables for anyone to predict things with absolute certainty. At best, our long term projections are more of educated guesses than absolute authorities. The only things we know for sure is the average energy received from the Sun, and that is bound to only increase as time goes on, but that's in really long term; in the space of tens of thousands of years, the activity of the Sun remains largely unpredictable beyond the 11-year cycle of sun spots.

Nevertheless - in the long term, the prediction is that there will be no ice caps. For most of the time. Antarctic ice will melt at some point and the water bound there will be released into the water cycle, partially into atmopspheric water vapour and partially into oceans. The question is, what happens before it, whether human activity affects it, and how fast will the changes happen.

Another thing to consider is that a lot of the carbon that was in the carbon cycle in the prehistoric warm eras - I'm talking about triassic, jurassic and cretacean here - is currently bound in fossil fuel reserves which we are rapidly cycling through. Both the carbon dioxide and oxygen levels were higher if I recall correctly, which made very large insects and very flush vegetation possible. Now I don't personally really think that there's much risk of Earth turning into another Venus, but obviously some connection might be here. During the ages of dinosaurs, a lot of carbon was in the carbon cycle, and it was warm. A lot of the carbon was bound into fossil fuel as remnants of the plants fossilized and were covered in sediment layers, and then climate got a lot cooler.

Of course, correlation does not imply causation; there could be a thousand other reasons why the climate got cooler; redistribution of continents changing ocean currents and dominant winds is a good one, but the fact is we ARE pumping a lot of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere while also affecting the amount of vegetation that cycles the carbon around in the biosphere. All these things combined, and the possibility of human activity affecting climate is not exactly that far-fetched to me.

The thing is, though, that we only really have hard data from a very short time period and all who know any statistics should be aware that making projections from such a short range of measurements is unreliable at best and guessing at worst. The thing is, though, that there are other negative effects caused by the same things that allegedly drive the climate warming, and I can easily see why some people would want to politicize these things by banding them under the umbrella threat of climate warming and add some scientific credibility to the opposition. It's unscientific and ultimately harmful for any sort of cause for more sustainable, economic way of doing things, but I can see where these people would be coming from.

In other words, it's easier to get people to maybe care a little bit if you say their actions threaten the way of their life, rather than just say that cutting down the mightiest trees in the woods with an overfished herring population while burning a lot of coal and oil might be unwise in and on itself.

Of course, while some people say one thing, others say that the spice must flow, and economy must grow to appease the beast, and that everything will be good and well as long as profit is made (after all you're only in this world for seventy odd years or so, what's going to change during that time).

Fear, uncertainty and doubt are powerful propaganda tools for any cause, and I can see why using them is so tempting.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2009, 08:10:03 am by Herra Tohtori »
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline Mika

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Several mainstream media outlets have confirmed that the leaked material is real.
There is something about it in New York Times and in Washington Post.

However, I suspect that the quoted email messages have been taken out of context. Given the importance of correct decision, I think there needs to be a public hearing about this.
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 
  

Offline Goober5000

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I think there's plenty more to say, given the implications of what this release reveals.  You shouldn't blindly accept one side's opinion on such a controversial topic, especially when the primary sources have been made so easily available to examine.

Searchable archive of the emails:
http://www.anelegantchaos.org/cru/index.php

 

Offline redsniper

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You shouldn't blindly accept one side's opinion on such a controversial topic
Yeah, this goes for everyone. I'm pretty sure the truth lies somewhere between 'OMG THEY LIED' and 'OMG QUOTE MINING'
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The future makes happy, if you make it yourself.
No war; think about happy things."   -WouterSmitssm

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Offline Lucika

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Someone should copy all that down and bury it deep on a hardware to ensure its survival.
HLP member 2008-2012 and Syrk:TUW project leader ~2010-2012

 

Offline Liberator

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It's already gone to ground, there's no way to hide it.  Too many people have it.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Yeah, but we still don't know if there's anything here worth hiding.

 

Offline Bobboau

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from what I've seen the most worrying email out of the batch is the one telling the other guy to delete his emails. there is also a lot of 'the data must be wrong' 'they don't agree with me so they must be wrong' type statements here and there that don't fit with the attitude of a scientist.
I've seen a few warm knives but no smoking guns.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2009, 01:13:02 am by Bobboau »
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Offline General Battuta

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I concur. That's bad stuff.

 

Offline Mongoose

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I agree.  This doesn't necessarily say anything at all about the implications of global warming, but it does at least point to some pretty massive violations of good scientific practice at an individual level.

 

Offline blackhole

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See, this is very bad. Why? Because bumbling moronic retards like Liberator will latch on to this and say GLOBAL WARMING IS ALL A HOAX LOLOLOL. This in turn will cause a massive economic collapse of alternative energy sources, which means we'll attempt to go back to our old coal reserves only to discover that they're all but depleted and then be like F-CK.

If this gets too extreme, then the entire public will start thinking its perfectly ok to abuse the environment, which could in fact start global warming if it hasn't already happened! If people use this to rationalize littering, wasting, etc, then we'll have massive destruction of ecosystems across the world in a matter of decades and global warming will be the least of our concerns.

So basically the entire human race is now doomed to its own stupidity. I hope you're happy, Liberator.