Author Topic: Hadley Centre hacked.  (Read 35341 times)

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Offline Liberator

  • Poe's Law In Action
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Because it doesn't serve they're world view on how people should be forced to live.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline Janos

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Quote
Neither should one be surprised at the fact that raw data is guarded very hawkishly, which shouldn't be surprising either.

Why?  If the results will be as destructive as people are claiming, why can't they show us the data that supports it (or doesn't, as the case may be)?

What? But they do! Have you ever read scientific studies? They're charts filled with numbers - not all numbers the study gave, the ones that are actually valuable to said study.

More about this entire datastuff: Sometimes the data is not free to distribute, the data is available commercially, or they are preparing to analyze the data and publish new results. (Data is, still, often freely released when considered appropriate.)

And beyond that, if one has a problem with results they shouldn't be dependant on the actual raw data, but the methods of collecting it and the analysis (unless you suspect the data is incorrect, in which case read the following).

Let's discuss an example:

I make a study that involves three years of sitting on the top of a volcano. I make it with my own money. I get results, make a study out of them and publish the data. I describe how I collected the data, what I did with it and what my conclusions are. I present the necessary information for all of this. For reviewing the basis of my claims, no actual data is required outside the necessary I give (unless criticized for it, why would you need the eye colour for estimating the reproductive success of paratisized vs. non-paratisized trout). Methods, results, do the numbers match. I still have the data sheets I collected, but the methods and results of this one particular study are freely available. This particular data I collected is still mine and, unless otherwise necessary, I am under no obligation to hand it out if it meant possible destruction of my entire scientific career. You want similar data? You replicate the test, thus finding out if my methods were rigorous enough.

Now, if my study finds out that there are Cthulhus flying around in volcanoes, one can simply review my results by replicating the study - which is the entire point of science. If they don't find out Cthulhus in volcanoes, my entire study becomes suspect. I'll be dragged in the sidelines of science. If they do, well, good for me and them! I reanalyze this data and publish some stuff out of it - it is a huge datamine, nothing else. When I have nothing more to give I can release the entire raw data under my discretion.

In science, you don't have to have the entirety of raw data to be able to either estimate the validity of claims or, more importantly, be able to test the claims yourself. That's kinda the point. Replicating the study, not copying the raw data.

TL;DR version: If you suspect a study is faulty, you either find an obvious error in the methods or you replicate the test. Actually, since all you are trying to do is to prove the dominant hypothesis faulty, pretty much all you will be doing is replicating the test, over and over again, not demanding someone else funding and doing your job for you. Replication is the key here. It's one of the cornerstones of science.

Think about of it like this: are you trying to replicate the data and results themselves, or are you trying to replicate the test to see if the data and results fit the previous test?


« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 06:15:18 pm by Janos »
lol wtf

 

Offline Inquisitor

Quote
Because it doesn't serve they're world view on how people should be forced to live.

Pot meet kettle.

You wouldn't believe 2+2 equals 4 if it meant it violated you worldview.
No signature.

 

Offline Janos

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Because it doesn't serve they're world view on how people should be forced to live.

What a surprise, Liberator posts irrelevant one-liners instead of answering questions from page three.
lol wtf

  

Offline General Battuta

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Because it doesn't serve they're world view on how people should be forced to live.

Go back to page 3 and answer the questions directed at you.

 

Offline iamzack

  • 26
Quote
Because it doesn't serve they're world view on how people should be forced to live.

Pot meet kettle.

You wouldn't believe 2+2 equals 4 if it meant it violated you worldview.

well the bible says pi is 3
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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You wouldn't believe 2+2 equals 4 if it meant it violated you worldview.

That's only true if certain conditions are met at the set of elements that is used.

For example, for a set that only has elements [0,1] I could prove that 1+1=0. Not that you could use that set for much about anything, but it is a mathematically solid arithmetic result if you go through the axioms that ARE valid in that set.
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline Turambar

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You wouldn't believe 2+2 equals 4 if it meant it violated you worldview.

That's only true if certain conditions are met at the set of elements that is used.

For example, for a set that only has elements [0,1] I could prove that 1+1=0. Not that you could use that set for much about anything, but it is a mathematically solid arithmetic result if you go through the axioms that ARE valid in that set.

I'll accept this if Liberator can describe the axioms and what they mean.
10:55:48   TurambarBlade: i've been selecting my generals based on how much i like their hats
10:55:55   HerraTohtori: me too!
10:56:01   HerraTohtori: :D

 

Offline Liberator

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What are "their" beliefs, then? Why do They (who are they) advocate policy and a vision of future that is unpleasant for everyone? To discuss this, we have to decide
A) who "They" in this statement are
I don't know who "they" are specifically.
B) what are their motives in here
"They" refers to the faceless people behind the use of "global warming" to manipulate society to conform to they're sociopolitical agenda.  IE The limiting of freedoms and curtailing of personal rights on the basis that those freedoms and rights are damaging to the environment and that the vast majority of the population is undeserving of said rights.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
So, um, the Elders of Zion? The Reptilians?

I hadn't realized we were at conspiracy theory level here.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 10:26:24 pm by General Battuta »

 

Offline karajorma

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Because if they show the data some other scientist might publish before they do. Given the importance of the number of publications a scientist has, it's not surprising at all that they guard it until after they publish.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline watsisname

What are "their" beliefs, then? Why do They (who are they) advocate policy and a vision of future that is unpleasant for everyone? To discuss this, we have to decide
A) who "They" in this statement are
I don't know who "they" are specifically.
B) what are their motives in here
"They" refers to the faceless people behind the use of "global warming" to manipulate society to conform to they're sociopolitical agenda.  IE The limiting of freedoms and curtailing of personal rights on the basis that those freedoms and rights are damaging to the environment and that the vast majority of the population is undeserving of said rights.

Thanks for answering the question, but you're still only spouting conspiracy theory without any supporting evidence.  If you could, please back up your assertions.
In my world of sleepers, everything will be erased.
I'll be your religion, your only endless ideal.
Slowly we crawl in the dark.
Swallowed by the seductive night.

 

Offline Janos

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What are "their" beliefs, then? Why do They (who are they) advocate policy and a vision of future that is unpleasant for everyone? To discuss this, we have to decide
A) who "They" in this statement are
I don't know who "they" are specifically.
B) what are their motives in here
"They" refers to the faceless people behind the use of "global warming" to manipulate society to conform to they're sociopolitical agenda.  IE The limiting of freedoms and curtailing of personal rights on the basis that those freedoms and rights are damaging to the environment and that the vast majority of the population is undeserving of said rights.

Conspiracy theories. You have no solid evidence about anything, you cannot even define the group ("faceless people") you attack, you cannot explain why thousands of scientists would take part in this conspiracy, the motives you give are simplistic to the extreme (they = evil), you talk about "manipulating society to drive an agenda". What you are essentially saying is that evil people are doing stuff to drive evil things. This is so ridiculous that I wonder why I am wasting precious ATP to write a rebuttal.

As Battuta said, this is pretty much Elders of Zion stuff. Completely unfalsifiable brainfarts.

« Last Edit: November 26, 2009, 05:59:56 am by Janos »
lol wtf

 

Offline Janos

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Hmmm it seems that CRU academics are not actually subject to FOIA, but I could be wrong. This is what has been circulating on some forums, so take it with a grain of salt.
I'm skimming through the list in FOIA, but they only mention the governing bodies of universities receiving public support (generally) and specifically I fail to find CRU, academia or even world "Anglia" from the legislation.

Quote
What bodies are covered by the Act?
The Act applies to public authorities and companies wholly owned by public authorities in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. A full list of public authorities covered by the Act can be found on the Department of Constitutional Affairs website.

The list of public authorities can be found here: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/Acts/acts2000/ukpga_20000036_en_10, and also here: http://www.dca.gov.uk/foi/reference/legislation.htm#coverage

There is another legislation, EIR, which seems more relevant to this particular "disclosure" matter. http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documents/library/environmental_info_reg/introductory/eip076_guidance_for_pub_doc_version3.pdf . Even this for dummies -version includes exceptions: work in process and intellectual property are quite relevant to this particular discussion.

And, of course, IANAL.

lol wtf

 

Offline WeatherOp

  • 29
  • I forged the ban hammer. What about that?
    • http://www.geocities.com/weather_op/pageone.html?1113100476773
More interesting news.

http://briefingroom.typepad.com/the_briefing_room/2009/11/breaking-nzs-niwa-accused-of-cru-style-temperature-faking.html

Once again I don't really know much about the site or it's leanings, but the links contained are very interesting.
Decent Blacksmith, Master procrastinator.

PHD in the field of Almost Finishing Projects.

 

Offline Liberator

  • Poe's Law In Action
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I read most of that linked article.

Truthfully phrases like:
Quote
Well, we’re not going to run around in circles just because somebody has put out a press release. We will continue to put out what is reasonable to provide.
make it sound like Dr. Wratt and the NIWA are trying to cherry pick the information that promotes they're agenda.

Also
Quote
NIWA scientists are committed to providing robust information to help all New Zealanders make good decisions.
make it sound like they think the average Kiwi doesn't make good decisions in they're worldview and need to be "helped" to make the "good" decision.

Granted I'm on the opposition here, but it honestly sounds like they're trying to do something that has nothing to do with science and everything to do with controlling people.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline Rian

  • 26
Alternatively, you could read it as "it's easier to make good decisions if you have all the relevant information, so we’re going to make sure our data is as thorough and well-justified ["robust"] as possible."

 

Offline iamzack

  • 26
Also
Quote
NIWA scientists are committed to providing robust information to help all New Zealanders make good decisions.
make it sound like they think the average Kiwi doesn't make good decisions in they're worldview and need to be "helped" to make the "good" decision.

Granted I'm on the opposition here, but it honestly sounds like they're trying to do something that has nothing to do with science and everything to do with controlling people.

You are the biggest hypocrite on HLP.

Providing information is NOT controlling people. Providing information so that people can make better decisions is how things should ALWAYS be done. People can't make good decisions without knowing all the relevant facts. That's just basic common sense.

YOU consistently promote making decisions FOR people INSTEAD of providing information so they can make their own.
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline Liberator

  • Poe's Law In Action
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Here's the several options that are in play for Climate Change:

Option 1:  The world is getting warmer.  It's all our fault.  So governments and private organizations are fully correct to enforce any and all restrictions and limitations on businesses, corporations and private citizens to stem the warming.

Option 2:  The world is getting warmer.  We having nothing to do with it.  Governments and private organizations are fully correct to suggest actions and take measures that will aid in businesses, corporations and private citizens to adapting to the warming.

Option 3: The world isn't getting warmer.  It is in fact getting cooler.

Guess which one I subscribe to.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

  • The Academic
  • 211
  • Bad command or file name
Let us find this out via scientific method, rather than the uneducated way of "guessing".

Hypothesis: Liberator is, in fact, of the opinion that option three has the greatest chances of being the accurate representation of reality.

Empirical test of hypothesis: Liberator, is option three the one you support?

There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.