[NGTM-1R]

Sounds a lot like a Mormon meetinghouse actually.

Yes, but they're not supposed to admit that to us. Or something.

[Scotty]

And no Jesus on the cross, no cross at all in fact, no stained glass depictions of it, no...you get the idea. Idolatry is a very loosely defined thing. Islam's the only religion which is fully compliant to that sort of thing.

And, once again, your interpretation has nothing to do with the scripture itself.  Idolatry is actually rather definitive in the passage we are referring to:

'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

That's the second commandment.  Jesus came to Earth, therefore, any image of Him does not violate this.  Same goes for the cross (and Mary, I suppose, but I'm still uneasy about that).

[Topgun]

O god o god o god


first let me set this straight.

"let he who has not sinned throw the first stone" is in only a few of the ancient manuscripts, so its pretty safe to assume it was added later, not that it matters though, because even if wasn't, the moral is that we shouldn't judge others because we are all worthy of death.
secondly, Mary WAS imperfect, otherwise she would have never gotten old and died. the reason Jesus did not inherit sin is because sin is only inherted through the father, and since Jesus's father was god, he didn't get sin.
and finally, the cross is an idol that the Egyptians used for a form of sex worship. and besides, it doesn't matter what jesus died on, what matters is that he died for us.

[Thaeris]

<Thaeris gives Topgun mad props.  >

[Topgun]

also, the Bible clearly shows that it is NOT okay to make an image to worship God.



Exodus 32

  

1And the people see that Moses is delaying to come down from the mount, and the people assemble against Aaron, and say unto him, `Rise, make for us gods who go before us, for this Moses -- the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt -- we have not known what hath happened to him.'

   2And Aaron saith unto them, `Break off the rings of gold which [are] in the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters, and bring in unto me;'

   3and all the people themselves break off the rings of gold which [are] in their ears, and bring in unto Aaron,

   4and he receiveth from their hand, and doth fashion it with a graving tool, and doth make it a molten calf, and they say, `These thy gods, O Israel, who brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.'

   5And Aaron seeth, and buildeth an altar before it, and Aaron calleth, and saith, `A festival to Jehovah -- to-morrow;'

now lets stop right here for a sec.
the Israelites wanted to have a festival, supposedly in honor to Jehovah, so they made a golden calf to use in their "worship of Jehovah"
what happened next?

And Jehovah saith unto Moses, `Go, descend, for thy people whom thou hast brought up out of the land of Egypt hath done corruptly,

   8they have turned aside hastily from the way that I have commanded them; they have made for themselves a molten calf, and bow themselves to it, and sacrifice to it, and say, These thy gods, O Israel, who brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.'

   9And Jehovah saith unto Moses, `I have seen this people, and lo, it [is] a stiff-necked people;

   10and now, let Me alone, and My anger doth burn against them, and I consume them, and I make thee become a great nation.'

   11And Moses appeaseth the face of Jehovah his God, and saith, `Why, O Jehovah, doth Thine anger burn against Thy people, whom Thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a strong hand?

   12why do the Egyptians speak, saying, For evil He brought them out to slay them among mountains, and to consume them from off the face of the ground? turn back from the heat of Thine anger, and repent of the evil against Thy people.

   13`Be mindful of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Israel, Thy servants, to whom Thou hast sworn by Thyself, and unto whom Thou speakest: I multiply your seed as stars of the heavens, and all this land, as I have said, I give to your seed, and they have inherited to the age;'

   14and Jehovah repenteth of the evil which He hath spoken of doing to His people.

   15And Moses turneth, and goeth down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony [are] in his hand, tables written on both their sides, on this and on that [are] they written;

   16and the tables are the work of God, and the writing is the writing of God, graven on the tables.

   17And Joshua heareth the voice of the people in their shouting, and saith unto Moses, `A noise of battle in the camp!'

   18and he saith, `It is not the voice of the crying of might, nor is it the voice of the crying of weakness -- a voice of singing I am hearing.'

   19And it cometh to pass, when he hath drawn near unto the camp, that he seeth the calf, and the dancing, and the anger of Moses burneth, and he casteth out of his hands the tables, and breaketh them under the mount;

   20and he taketh the calf which they have made, and burneth [it] with fire, and grindeth until [it is] small, and scattereth on the face of the waters, and causeth the sons of Israel to drink.

   21And Moses saith unto Aaron, `What hath this people done to thee, that thou hast brought in upon it a great sin?'

   22and Aaron saith, `Let not the anger of my lord burn; thou -- thou hast known the people that it [is] in evil;

   23and they say to me, Make for us gods, who go before us, for this Moses -- the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt -- we have not known what hath happened to him;

   24and I say to them, Whoso hath gold, let them break [it] off, and they give to me, and I cast it into the fire, and this calf cometh out.'

   25And Moses seeth the people that it [is] unbridled, for Aaron hath made it unbridled for contempt among its withstanders,

   26and Moses standeth in the gate of the camp, and saith, `Who [is] for Jehovah? -- unto me!' and all the sons of Levi are gathered unto him;

   27and he saith to them, `Thus said Jehovah, God of Israel, Put each his sword by his thigh, pass over and turn back from gate to gate through the camp, and slay each his brother, and each his friend, and each his relation.'

   28And the sons of Levi do according to the word of Moses, and there fall of the people on that day about three thousand men,

yeah, God didn't like that party so much.

[Scotty]

Read the 2nd again.  It says "You shall not make... any likeness of anything that is in heaven above..."

God fits the bill.  (Plus, golden calf is not a symbol of God, but rather some unnamed "gods" [notice the capitalization there].)

Jesus is sort of debatable.

(plus, an image to worship God, and an image of God are not necessarily the same thing.  Then again, that doesn't matter according to the commandment central to this dispute.)

[General Battuta]

Religious debates are like the ultimate fanwanking.  

lol atheist troll

(at least Muslims have a sweet 2001-esque cube thing, also Sikhs have sweet hats)

(also did you know that Cao Dai is one of the top twenty religions of the world? I've never bloody heard of it!)

[Ford Prefect]

This is why I like religious traditions that embrace immanence as a property of the divine; they tend to dodge this whole hopeless neurosis over separating the aesthetic and the spiritual.

[Stealth]

No, there are religions (Christian religoins) that don't have images, statues, etc. of saints, or any other individual (God or otherwise) in their churches.

And no Jesus on the cross, no cross at all in fact, no stained glass depictions of it, no...you get the idea. Idolatry is a very loosely defined thing. Islam's the only religion which is fully compliant to that sort of thing.

Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses... like i said, there are several religionsthat don't have Jesus on the cross, no cross at all, no stained glass depictions of it... actually, yeah, everything you just stated.

Do your research before making statements like that

[Stealth]

O god o god o god


first let me set this straight.

"let he who has not sinned throw the first stone" is in only a few of the ancient manuscripts, so its pretty safe to assume it was added later, not that it matters though, because even if wasn't, the moral is that we shouldn't judge others because we are all worthy of death.
secondly, Mary WAS imperfect, otherwise she would have never gotten old and died. the reason Jesus did not inherit sin is because sin is only inherted through the father, and since Jesus's father was god, he didn't get sin.
and finally, the cross is an idol that the Egyptians used for a form of sex worship. and besides, it doesn't matter what jesus died on, what matters is that he died for us.

Bingo.

[NGTM-1R]

That statement is self-contradicting, as it says it's in only a few of the ancient manuscripts, therefore it's not from them?

[pecenipicek]

The Catholic Church itself is idolatry in its purest and most unbridled form.


The Cross. The cross.. THE FRICKING CROSS.


Think about it. Yes, "God" didnt like the "party", since he had a "representative".


But now, to what else can the Church kneel to and pray to but the concept of "God". There are no more prophets to lead the ignorant masses out of egypt or the like. There are no more "God's" "children". What else is the Church left to but to kneel to the cross and follow "The Book".

Spoiler:

I was a Christian. The whole deal doesnt make much sense to me so i left. If "God" has no more love for me for turning my back on him and his "flock", then so be it, since i really dont want to be a "sheep" under the guidance of a "sheperd". I'll rather be a "wolf".


All the words that are under quotaiton marks are not to be taken as their literal meaning. Just think this through before flamin, k?

[Titan]

I honestly don't really care about religion. Depending on how much of a fanatic you are, it's either a good thing (think church charities, teaching people to be nice to one another) to a bad thing (think... uh... the crusades... and... 9/11)


Also, my friend Tommy is a book-a-holic, who read twilight after the movie came out to see what the fuss was all about. He didn't really see anything against it, but our lunch table had a laugh when he read aloud the scene where they're in the car and the damn ***** keeps whining about 'It won't start' and 'I cant hold on'. The dialogue was very weird. We all misinterpreted it until he revealed that they were trying to escape someone.

[Stealth]

That statement is self-contradicting, as it says it's in only a few of the ancient manuscripts, therefore it's not from them?

Let me rephrase it -

That part of the Bible appears only in SOME manuscripts.  The fact that not all of them contain it means it must have been added later.  Kind of like if you make 10 copies of an original document, then give them to 10 people who are supposed to make copies.  Then you compare those 100 copies, and find that 10 of them are different from the other 90 - chances are that person made additions to it.  That's a primitive way of explaining the situation, but i don't know how to make it any clearer :/

[Rian]

Unless it was present in the earlier versions and got deleted in later versions.

Alternatively, it was part of an oral tradition that was transcribed by a number of people who simultaneously produced slightly different manuscripts.

Note that I make no claims about historical fact, merely pointing out that your analogy fails to rule out a number of alternative explanations.

[Topgun]

Unless it was present in the earlier versions and got deleted in later versions.

that is one possibility, but like I said, it doesn't really matter.

[QuantumDelta]

Surely we can test this theory by making another golden calf and worshiping it? ;p

Might I also point out that this is another one of those 'myths' the bible borrowed from previously existing religions because the Jewish/Christian/Islamic God is an amalgamation of at least 5 /*I*/ directly know of previously and subsequently existing religions and cultures.
And that's talking before Catholic/Protestant/etcetcstupiddeNOMinations were even issues?

Yet people seem to think it's both infallible, direct, true and original.

It does not compute.

[SpardaSon21]

Back on the Twilight topic:
Say hello to Blade mother****ers!

[General Battuta]

In a similar vein to that image, this is one of the best things ever.

[TrashMan]

Heheehe...that was good.

I loved how That Guy With the Glasses riped hte move a new one. And Move Bob did it too. And Spoony.