[Androgeos Exeunt]

* Androgeos Exeunt glances at the thread title.

Um, right.

I'm not so sure about the Myrmidon's cannon's being off-position. I actually find them to be much better at hitting things than the gunpoints of most other ships. In fact, the placement of its six guns are also part of the reason why I may actually choose it over the Herc II in some missions.

[Iranon]

I really think exotic primary compatibility matters in fighters with a 4+2 gun layout. Fighters with symetrical banks gain 1/3 in firepower when firing from two banks equipped with general purpose weaponry. The Myrmidon will gain no firepower over just using its 4-gun bank. Loading the smaller bank up with Maxims for free shots against capital ships would usually be exellent, as it is the Myrmidon will have to use some other toy (I made a few suggestions in an earlier post).
The Myrmidon can't carry Stilettos but that's hardly an issue... usually Trebuchets do their jobs about as well.

The problem remains that the Myrmidon can be good in every role but the one it's supposed to fill. Heavy interceptor? Sure: it can deliver a lot of firepower to where it's needed reasonably quickly and is still agile enough to polish off assault fighter/bombers with primaries. Light assault fighter? Sure: it's flexibile enough in secondaries to pick off problematic turrets/escorts and then brings its above-average firepower to bear on midsize targets. Strike bomber? Sure: Best ship in the game for this if you're able and willing to load it up with Helios warheads even though you probably shouldn't.
But Space superiority? Each and every competitor will fly rings around it... this is not the craft to beat Ulysses, Thoths or Dragons at their own game.

[Aardwolf]

* Androgeos Exeunt glances at the thread title.

I noticed that when this got threadsplit I became the OP, and thus had the power to rename the thread. Originally I gave it a much dumber name

[SypheDMar]

Always believed that a dev. mistook Harpoon for Helios in the table. Would make more sense.

If we believe that the Myrmidon using the Helios is absurd, we could, for a moment, assume that the Myrmidon can carry the Harpoon. Would that make it better?

[Commander Zane]

Only the Zeus and Ursa carry Harpoons, so compatibility with Harpoons on GTA bombers are nearly non-existant. If the Myrmidon was meant to use the Helios then why should it use the Harpoon?

[SypheDMar]

If you really think that the Myrmidon's supposed to use the Helios, then I have no comment. Or maybe I do, but that wasn't what I was arguing for, anyway.

What I'm saying is this: Myrmidon uses Harpoons. Myrmidon cannot use Helios. These assumptions happen in a hypothetical world.

[Solatar]

Even if possible errors in canon are obviously errors, they have to be taken as canon unless they can be proven to be errors by other canon sources. Sol having only 1 canonical jump node, for example (several references make it seem like there are multiple ones, but we've been told there is only one.)

So as much as I'd LOVE to go into my tables and replace the word Helios with Harpoon in the Myrmidon entry, I simply can't. 

[Commander Zane]

If you really think that the Myrmidon's supposed to use the Helios, then I have no comment. Or maybe I do, but that wasn't what I was arguing for, anyway.

What I'm saying is this: Myrmidon uses Harpoons. Myrmidon cannot use Helios. These assumptions happen in a hypothetical world.

I don't really thing the Myrmidon is supposed to use a missile that spans twice the length of the entire ship, I was one of the first people to mention the out-of-whack proportions between the two.

[SypheDMar]

Even if possible errors in canon are obviously errors, they have to be taken as canon unless they can be proven to be errors by other canon sources. Sol having only 1 canonical jump node, for example (several references make it seem like there are multiple ones, but we've been told there is only one.)

So as much as I'd LOVE to go into my tables and replace the word Helios with Harpoon in the Myrmidon entry, I simply can't. 

I understand, which leads back to my original question.

Would that make it better?

[NGTM-1R]

If you really think that the Myrmidon's supposed to use the Helios, then I have no comment. Or maybe I do, but that wasn't what I was arguing for, anyway.

If you really think they screwed up that badly in not giving it the Harpoon, you're crazy. Somebody would have noticed in beta. If the Helios was simply the odd one out in the table entry for stuff, sure, I could buy that it's a mistake, but it's not; they also delibrately did not give the Myrmidon the Harpoon, which is a much more glaring and serious error if there are any errors about, and once they went to fix that they would have noticed the Helios was in there too.

But they didn't go to fix that. Everything, therefore, is most likely as it should be.

[Mongoose]

The problem remains that the Myrmidon can be good in every role but the one it's supposed to fill. Heavy interceptor? Sure: it can deliver a lot of firepower to where it's needed reasonably quickly and is still agile enough to polish off assault fighter/bombers with primaries. Light assault fighter? Sure: it's flexibile enough in secondaries to pick off problematic turrets/escorts and then brings its above-average firepower to bear on midsize targets. Strike bomber? Sure: Best ship in the game for this if you're able and willing to load it up with Helios warheads even though you probably shouldn't.
But Space superiority? Each and every competitor will fly rings around it... this is not the craft to beat Ulysses, Thoths or Dragons at their own game.

The thing is, the Apollo was the original "space superiority fighter," and Ulysses, Thoths, and Dragons could obviously all manage to fly rings around it.  I'd place the three of them (maybe along with the Loki, although that could just as easily go in as an early Pegasus/Ptah) in their own class, whereas the Myrmidon is intended as a direct success of the Apollo; how well it manages this is a matter of opinion.

[Droid803]

Even if possible errors in canon are obviously errors, they have to be taken as canon unless they can be proven to be errors by other canon sources. Sol having only 1 canonical jump node, for example (several references make it seem like there are multiple ones, but we've been told there is only one.)

So as much as I'd LOVE to go into my tables and replace the word Helios with Harpoon in the Myrmidon entry, I simply can't. 

What about the Bahka that has Helios listed in its primaries?
That has to be an error (from the fact that you fly a Helios-armed Bakha in bearbaiting).

[Woolie Wool]

I found the Bakha/Helios in Bearbaiting ridiculous. The Helios to me ought to be reserved for heavy bombers, which would also be the logical choice for Juggernaut assaults. Therefore, I think the mission should have used the Sekhmet instead.

[ChronoReverse]

I don't even know why the Bakha exists when the Sekhmet is there.  The fact we're forced to use the Bakha in Bearbaiting strikes me as artificial difficulty if anything.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

I found the Bakha/Helios in Bearbaiting ridiculous. The Helios to me ought to be reserved for heavy bombers, which would also be the logical choice for Juggernaut assaults. Therefore, I think the mission should have used the Sekhmet instead.

The Sekhmet can carry three Helios torpedoes in each of its second and third banks, right?

[Kie99]

The Myrmidon carry Helios is not canon unless we accept the following

a) The GTVA's tech description for the Ares says it handles like a potato
b) The GTVA's tech description for the Terran gas miner says that a pilot's first thought is 'thank god I'm not flying that tub'
c) There is a space pirate ship
d) The Bakha can carry the Helios as a primary weapon
e) The Ravana is a cruiser

as canon.

You've got to use your brain when thinking about this sort of thing, the Myrmidon isn't even shown in any mission to have the Helios, and the option is never given to the player.  The realism of Freespace is already very dodgy, there's no need to take it into a complete fantasy world.

[SuperCoolAl]

The Myrmidon carry Helios is not canon unless we accept the following

a) The GTVA's tech description for the Ares says it handles like a potato
b) The GTVA's tech description for the Terran gas miner says that a pilot's first thought is 'thank god I'm not flying that tub'
c) There is a space pirate ship
d) The Bakha can carry the Helios as a primary weapon
e) The Ravana is a cruiser

as canon.

You've got to use your brain when thinking about this sort of thing, the Myrmidon isn't even shown in any mission to have the Helios, and the option is never given to the player.  The realism of Freespace is already very dodgy, there's no need to take it into a complete fantasy world.

a) The tech description is the canonical opinion of whoever wrote the tech description. In the Freespace universe this person might believe that no matter if it's true or not.

b) Same thing

c) Obvious Easter Egg, not used anywhere in game.

d) Not seen anywhere in game, why fix something that doesn't manifest as a visible bug?

e) Where does it say that?

The difference is you CAN use the Myrmidon with Helios in official multiplayer missions and so it's canon.

[Kie99]

The Myrmidon carry Helios is not canon unless we accept the following

a) The GTVA's tech description for the Ares says it handles like a potato
b) The GTVA's tech description for the Terran gas miner says that a pilot's first thought is 'thank god I'm not flying that tub'
c) There is a space pirate ship
d) The Bakha can carry the Helios as a primary weapon
e) The Ravana is a cruiser

as canon.

You've got to use your brain when thinking about this sort of thing, the Myrmidon isn't even shown in any mission to have the Helios, and the option is never given to the player.  The realism of Freespace is already very dodgy, there's no need to take it into a complete fantasy world.

a) The tech description is the canonical opinion of whoever wrote the tech description. In the Freespace universe this person might believe that no matter if it's true or not.

b) Same thing

c) Obvious Easter Egg, not used anywhere in game.

d) Not seen anywhere in game, why fix something that doesn't manifest as a visible bug?

e) Where does it say that?

The difference is you CAN use the Myrmidon with Helios in official multiplayer missions and so it's canon.

OK so that is the way a professional employed to write technical descriptions would go about it, and is completely in tone with the other tech descriptions, right.

Myrmidon is not used with Helios anywhere in the game, allowing it in FRED is similar to placing a Volition Bravos in High Noon

Snipes calls the Nebiros a cruiser in Into the Lions' Den.

I'd say being able to use a bomb bigger than your ship is a great reason to say that either multiplayer missions are not canon, or that there has been a mistake in the tables.

[SuperCoolAl]

I think the Nebiros was originally meant to be a cruiser, I think Snipes would have had a far more "HOLY **** DODGE" reaction if it had been a Ravana then. That was something that always struck me as odd about that mission.

About the ships that can use the Helios. If you put the number of Helios they can carry on top of each other I bet more than the Myrm would end up smaller than their payload.

[Ziame]

IMO Helios is a mistake, but i think that Harpoons weren't meant to be available for Myrm pilots. Dunno it feels somehow wrong.