[Polpolion]

Hold up a second, I'm confused: I thought we were talking using only realistic physics in this debate. You guys aren't allowed to use subspace in this discussion because it hasn't been verified as true. It may very well be possible that subspace exists in the real world, but it also may very well be possible that if anyone enters subspace they're unavoidably and immediately rent into pieces. Sure, I'll give you that the missile will not only be very visible and identifiable during acceleration, maneuvering, and evasion, and that any ship could easily enter subspace upon sight of the missile in Freespace, but within the context of this discussion we cannot assume that subspace would work as it does in freespace.

I refer back to the title

Changes to GTVA needed to defend against Shivans

and the opening post

Hello,

What changes to GTVA do you think are needed in order to be able to defend against Shivan menace in the post-FS2 period?

thus reality has nothing to do with the subject

THANK YOU

Additionally, refer back to this argument I made that seems essentially ignored:

Freespace is bound by its game mechanics. We are discussing (trying to, at least) ways to combat Shivans in Freespace. Therefore, what we discuss should be bound by Freespace's game mechanics.

Furthermore, if anyone had noticed that the brief discussion we'd had assuming Realistic physics was very unlike Freespace. No one exactly caught on to what I was doing, but discussing Freespace with realistic physics makes about as much sense as discussing realistic physics in Freespace terms.

[terran_emperor]

Oh. i thought the discussion was of in-universe ways to improve the GTVA post capella. Thus in-universe discussions are not bound by limitations

[Polpolion]

I no longer have any idea what people are talking about.

Let's make a ship that has two engines. One is a free space engine, and one is a real life engine. When the ship is powered up, a massive paradox will cause the entire system and its occupants to cease to exist in a great big hellishly confusing cataclysm.

[Qent]

It would be very useful if you could find a way to switch mid-flight between the real life and FreeSpace engines. But the GTVA shouldn't have too much of a problem with the juggernaught fleet if they'd just build long-range torpedoes without adding "bomb" flags.

No one exactly caught on to what I was doing, but discussing Freespace with realistic physics makes about as much sense as discussing realistic physics in Freespace terms.

I think this is an interesting perspective. Are you saying, for example, that in the FreeSpace universe there is friction in space just as surely as there is subspace?

[Polpolion]

It would be very useful if you could find a way to switch mid-flight between the real life and FreeSpace engines. But the GTVA shouldn't have too much of a problem with the juggernaught fleet if they'd just build long-range torpedoes without adding "bomb" flags.

There's a difference between being subject to game mechanics and meta-gaming. After all, why don't people just set the Sathanas's hitpoints to 1 in the table files, and make the Sathanas self destruct in "Their Finest Hour?" Because it's a game. I'm sure if real lives were really at stake, no one would find an issue with doing that.

No one exactly caught on to what I was doing, but discussing Freespace with realistic physics makes about as much sense as discussing realistic physics in Freespace terms.

I think this is an interesting perspective. Are you saying, for example, that in the FreeSpace universe there is friction in space just as surely as there is subspace?

I was kinda trying to say with what you quoted that discussing Freespace with only realistic physics is like discussion modern combat in terms of video game. Why doesn't the US army just open up the Real Life console and type in "god" and 'impulse101?" After all, balancing and cheating doesn't matter when lives are at stake. Or why don't they develop a tank with a gun that isn't impeded by traveling uphill? Or a bomb that doesn't inherit its bomber's lateral momentum?

[FlayedOne]

I don't know if you guys noticed, but in FS game physics, light travels at 500-something m/s, so all fighters and missles are already traveling at significant c-fraction speeds. It also makes light-years a lot smaller than in our reality. It only takes about 20 years for a Sathanas to travel a lightyear, and depending on where the systems are positioned in the galaxy(distances in the center of the galaxy are smaller then on the outer rims), they may very well be closer than a lightyear apart.

[Polpolion]

light travels at 500-something m/s

Explain what led you to believe this.

[Thaeris]

This is probably due to the fact that "lasers" travel at those speeds, though that's also inaccurate as there's quite a few weapons which travel faster than 500m/s.

Why does FS handle the way it does? Because that's how rolls... 

[Snail]

subluminal lasers

[Droid803]

There's the explanation that blobs are...well...blobs of ejected plasma.

[Rodo]

never liked blobs, they just seem to improbable for me, lasers are just a step away from blobs as well.

[ChronoReverse]

The closest star to Sol is Alpha Centauri and even if the Shivans had the capability to accelerate to nearly c (the energy cost of which would make supernova'ing Capella look trivial) that's still 4 years of travel.  Try to do so from random locations of the galaxy (100,000 lightyears in diameter) and it's rather obvious that it'll still take a long time for the Shivans to arrive.

[Woolie Wool]

Why would the locations be random? Since the Shivans probably have free run of most of the galaxy and hundreds of thousands if not millions of systems, they could launch their forces from stars only a few light-years from a GTVA system.

[ChronoReverse]

The Terran and Vasudan systems are random ones that happen to be connected by subspace tunnels.  Yet they didn't encounter the Shivans in all those systems.  Furthermore, you could say for sure they have explored their home systems at least (perhaps even sent missions to nearby stars).  It just so happens that the Shivans have all the star systems around but not the home systems?  That's making things rather convenient.

Besides, why would the Shivans even care about the Terrans and Vasudans if those species collapsed their subspace nodes and stopped using them anyway.  Under the various possible theories proposed in the cutscenes, the Shivans clearly only cared about races capable of traveling subspace and spreading that way.

[Woolie Wool]

Well the whole thing with subspace is that systems that are "close" in subspace may not be close in realspace, and systems that are distant in subspace (relatively speaking; distances in subspace are orders of magnitude shorter than in realspace, which is why it takes minutes rather than years to reach another star system) may be right next to each other in realspace. Therefore, it is entirely possible for systems only a few light-years from a system Terran-Vasudan space to be full of Shivans

Furthermore, whether the Shivans would do this is irrelevant, because the discussion is about what they could do if they actually set their minds to annihilating the Terran and Vasudan species.

[redsniper]

The only changes the GTVA needs to make is to "cast aside logic and do the impossible!"
Face every challenge head-on and win by pure force of will.

[headdie]

The only changes the GTVA needs to make is to "cast aside logic and do the impossible!"
Face every challenge head-on and win by pure force of will.

in other words clone alpha 1 enough for 20 squadrons and assign the clones to bomber and fighter squadrons held back until the shivans return then release the unspeeking fury on them

[ChronoReverse]

Well the whole thing with subspace is that systems that are "close" in subspace may not be close in realspace, and systems that are distant in subspace (relatively speaking; distances in subspace are orders of magnitude shorter than in realspace, which is why it takes minutes rather than years to reach another star system) may be right next to each other in realspace. Therefore, it is entirely possible for systems only a few light-years from a system Terran-Vasudan space to be full of Shivans

That's the whole damn problem.  It's only a small chance that it would be the case but you jump on it because it's convenient.  It's just as likely (actually it's more likely than not considering how enormous just our galaxy alone is) that there aren't Shivans in the systems that are nearby.  Furthermore, this is still ignoring the primary point that the energy needed to accelerate to the speeds required to get to Earth in a timely manner even for these short distances requires a great deal of energy.

Furthermore, whether the Shivans would do this is irrelevant, because the discussion is about what they could do if they actually set their minds to annihilating the Terran and Vasudan species.

Not really.

What changes to GTVA do you think are needed in order to be able to defend against Shivan menace in the post-FS2 period?

The question is more asking how, given how the Shivans have worked thus far, would the GTVA adapt for a future incursion.

Hence relevant discussion about how the GTVA can't really build up anything within 30 years to deal with multiple juggernauts and perhaps the best hope would be quicker portable methods to seal off nodes.

[Woolie Wool]

Well the whole thing with subspace is that systems that are "close" in subspace may not be close in realspace, and systems that are distant in subspace (relatively speaking; distances in subspace are orders of magnitude shorter than in realspace, which is why it takes minutes rather than years to reach another star system) may be right next to each other in realspace. Therefore, it is entirely possible for systems only a few light-years from a system Terran-Vasudan space to be full of Shivans

That's the whole damn problem.  It's only a small chance that it would be the case but you jump on it as a certainty because it's convenient.  It's just as likely that there aren't Shivans in the systems that are nearby.  Furthermore, this is still ignoring the primary point that the energy needed to accelerate to the speeds required to get to Earth in a timely manner requires a great deal of energy.

The Shivans are not like the GTVA. They have had full run of the galaxy, perhaps multiple galaxies, for thousands, maybe tens of thousands of years. They probably have millions of systems  and an empire that has grown at an exponential rate since human prehistory. The Shivan empire is almost certainly enormous almost beyond imagining.

The question is more asking how, given how the Shivans have worked thus far, would the GTVA adapt for a future incursion.

That was the question earlier. That is not the issue being discussed at this moment. Threads tend to evolve and drift over time; it's the way forums work.

[ChronoReverse]

That was the question earlier. That is not the issue being discussed at this moment. Threads tend to evolve and drift over time; it's the way forums work.

Except you are the only one insisting on specific scenarios that are continuously adjusted so that your idea stands.

Furthermore, you push ahead ideas that are purely speculation on your part as if they're canon.

The Shivans are not like the GTVA. They have had full run of the galaxy, perhaps multiple galaxies, for thousands, maybe tens of thousands of years. They probably have millions of systems  and an empire that has grown at an exponential rate since human prehistory. The Shivan empire is almost certainly enormous almost beyond imagining.

We don't even know how large the Shivan armada is.  Do they even "hold" systems?  They were definitely around the block when the Ancients were, but how far do they go back?  It was surmised that perhaps they have always existed as destroyers, but it was just an idle thought rather than definitive.  I mean, in FS2 we don't even know what they were really up to for the entire story.