[Scotty]

We are also not on this tangent from the "fight them in subspace" point, but rather the "Sathanases can't go faster than 25 m/s between planets in the interstellar void" point.

[Polpolion]

But the very game mechanics they're bound by preclude any sort of rational discussion about the game divorced from the context of the game itself and its hitpoints, hitboxes, and other video game abstractions. FreeSpace the universe must be divorced from FreeSpace 2 the game for any sort of real debate on its story to be done because the game mechanics are useless as anything but game mechanics.

What is the point in trying to figure out a real way to fight a fake enemy?

I'll humor you, though. I have a solution to our Shivan problem: You get massive nuclear warheads mounted on missiles that fly at c fractional velocities, fired from billions of miles away. Every single ship that's larger than a bomber is now completely obsolete.

[Commander Zane]

Aren't missiles in FreeSpace anyway already modern-day nuclear yeild?
Then there's the Harbinger.

[Polpolion]

Aren't missiles in FreeSpace anyway already modern-day nuclear yeild?
Then there's the Harbinger.

Those missiles are bound by freespace physics, though. They're flawed.

[Woolie Wool]

What is the point in trying to figure out a real way to fight a fake enemy?

What is the point in speculating or arguing about something that doesn't make even the slightest bit of sense? What I'm proposing is to make it make sense so it can actually be analyzed to some extent.

I'll humor you, though. I have a solution to our Shivan problem: You get massive nuclear warheads mounted on missiles that fly at c fractional velocities, fired from billions of miles away. Every single ship that's larger than a bomber is now completely obsolete.

Even c-fractional missiles can be shot down, considering that one could build a (true) laser whose shots are light-speed. AAA beams that are probably c-fractional themselves, and communications and sensors that may be FTL and probably involve subspace of some sort. If you fire them billions of miles away, the targets will have plenty of time to escape. Only SSMs could allow strikes from that range, and those implications are why I have never used SSMs in any of my mods. Also by engaging enemies at close range, you could prevent their missiles from burning their engines long enough to reach significant speed in the first place, and swat them down.

We are also not on this tangent from the "fight them in subspace" point, but rather the "Sathanases can't go faster than 25 m/s between planets in the interstellar void" point.

Speaking of subspace, I once wrote a long rationalization of subspace to try to make sense of it. This was written for the species.tbl of my defunct Starforce mod, so it references technologies that are hundreds or even thousands of years beyond what the GTVA has in FS2, and a much greater understanding of subspace than they have, but it still applies to them too.

In simple terms, subspace is the 'filling' that the space-time membrane of the universe rests on. Imagine an extremely wrinkled and distorted sphere. The interior of this sphere would be subspace, and the outer 'skin' the universe we exist in. The convolutions in space-time and the nature of subspace mean that a few minutes' travel through subspace can cover hundreds if not thousands of light years.

However, one cannot just enter subspace at a whim. The 'thickness' of the space-time membrane makes it impossible to transition into subspace except under certain conditions, and, furthermore, subspace is saturated with a seemingly limitless 'energy soup' that would annihilate any physical objects within subspace (this energy-rich ether is the source of the swirling glow associated with all forms of subspace use). Subspace nodes solve both of these problems.

A subspace node creates a corridor of realspace through subspace, connecting two points in the universe. Naturally-occurring subspace nodes are extremely unstable, collapsing within seconds of their formation. However, the more traffic passes through a subspace node, the more stable and permanent it becomes. A well-maintained node can exist indefinitely.

There are estimated to be several million permanent or semi-permanent subspace nodes linking star systems in the Milky Way galaxy. Of these, over 1.5 million have been charted. The origin of the vast majority of these long-lasting nodes is unknown, and historical record indicates they have been in use by other civilizations for millennia before humans developed spaceflight. Theories that the ancient, long-vanished Shivan race created these nodes has been mostly discredited--the Shivans could not have had an empire of millions of systems, even before their war with the Zica, and, at any rate, the Shivans sterilized every planet they ever inhabited to wipe out all Zica presence in this galaxy, and the number and distribution of devastated worlds does not support such theories.

Subspace nodes can be artificially generated with the correct calculations, a large amount of energy, and a subspace drive. Most spacecraft can only create very short nodes, usually no more than 10 light-years [Ed. note: in 2367, the distance would be less than one light year. Energy cost for subspace travel increases exponentially with distance, and is even higher when the node passes beyond a star's gravitational field, so inter-system jumps are too energy costly for the GTVA to even attempt], on their own, but larger starships can travel hundreds or even thousands of light-years without a pre-existing subspace node. Most artificial nodes have a lifespan of an hour or less. Passing additional ships through them can prolong their existence.

Dedicated subspace portals, while expensive and energy-intensive, are a more permanent solution for the creation of subspace nodes. Each portal is composed of multiple counter-rotating components that together create powerful subspace distortions. The first portal discovered by human beings was encountered in 2367, and named Knossos. After the Second Great War, humanity began building their own portals based on the design of Knossos, the first reconnecting Delta Serpentis to Sol in 2391. Portals that are used enough can create permanent subspace nodes, such as the Delta Serpentis-Sol node, which continues to exist long after the portal was dismantled.

The most extreme manifestations of subspace technology are Gates [Ed. note: The Shivans blew up Capella to make one of these], massive 'super-nodes' that connect entire galaxies and stretch for millions of light-years. No starship ever built has had the fuel to do conventional node-creation jumps over and over again long enough to reach another galaxy, so Stargates are the only practical method of intergalactic travel. Unfortunately, all of the Milky Way's Gates were collapsed by the Shivans to cut off the Zica's reinforcements during their war 34,000 years ago. The Stargate Project is an ongoing scientific endeavor carried out jointly by the Savaran Imperial Alliance, Earth Federation, and Core Consortium. Started in 4014, the project is nearing completion, and we hope to have a Gate to the Andromeda galaxy active next year.

[Commander Zane]

*Unrelated* Would this Starforce mod have any relation to Rogue Universe?

[Woolie Wool]

*Unrelated* Would this Starforce mod have any relation to Rogue Universe?

No, that's "Space Force". Starforce itself, despite having later appropriated FreeSpace's backstory, predates FreeSpace and was conceived in 1995 as pretty much all the sci-fi I took in growing up chopped up, thrown into a blender, mutated with various chemicals, and spilled back out and left to mutate for around 12 years or so. It provided a good vehicle for speculating on FreeSpace technologies, having 2,000 years of history to look back on, but the storyline itself, having been conceived when I was younger and stupider and afflicted with over a decade of mutation and idea creep/seep, was not just nonsense but iredeemable nonsense and I grew to detest it--this speculation was written shortly before I trashed Starforce and folded the the ideas that I thought were worthwhile such as these ruminations on subspace, into my FreeSpace-universe projects.

It was eventually eclipsed as my main sci-fi worldbuilding universe by a new one I call Halcyon, which I started with consistent ground rules and setting principles so it would always make at least some sense. Unfortunately this one is not suitable for making into a FreeSpace mod because it's a lot less nebulous than Starforce and a lot of things that I put into it (like ships with arrays of turrets that track and fire as a unit, volleys of multiple independently-targeted missiles, use of beam-type weapons by pretty much everyone, and various ship designs I had drawn up with un-FS featurs like multipart turrets mounted on the sides) are impractical or impossible to replicate in FS.

[Polpolion]

Even c-fractional missiles can be shot down, considering that one could build a (true) laser whose shots are light-speed. AAA beams that are probably c-fractional themselves, and communications and sensors that may be FTL and probably involve subspace of some sort. If you fire them billions of miles away, the targets will have plenty of time to escape. Only SSMs could allow strikes from that range, and those implications are why I have never used SSMs in any of my mods. Also by engaging enemies at close range, you could prevent their missiles from burning their engines long enough to reach significant speed in the first place, and swat them down.

Close. AAA actually travels at 1c given that it's light, but as I'm sure you're aware, it's extremely inaccurate.



As you can see, it's very nearly a stealth fighter with a huge warhead and crazy engines.

EDIT: I made myself sad

[Commander Zane]

*Unrelated* Would this Starforce mod have any relation to Rogue Universe?

No, that's "Space Force". Starforce itself, despite having later appropriated FreeSpace's backstory, predates FreeSpace and was conceived in 1995 as pretty much all the sci-fi I took in growing up chopped up, thrown into a blender, mutated with various chemicals, and spilled back out and left to mutate for around 12 years or so. It provided a good vehicle for speculating on FreeSpace technologies, having 2,000 years of history to look back on, but the storyline itself, having been conceived when I was younger and stupider and afflicted with over a decade of mutation and idea creep/seep, was not just nonsense but iredeemable nonsense and I grew to detest it--this speculation was written shortly before I trashed Starforce and folded the the ideas that I thought were worthwhile such as these ruminations on subspace, into my FreeSpace-universe projects.

Right, it's been a while.

[Woolie Wool]

Even c-fractional missiles can be shot down, considering that one could build a (true) laser whose shots are light-speed. AAA beams that are probably c-fractional themselves, and communications and sensors that may be FTL and probably involve subspace of some sort. If you fire them billions of miles away, the targets will have plenty of time to escape. Only SSMs could allow strikes from that range, and those implications are why I have never used SSMs in any of my mods. Also by engaging enemies at close range, you could prevent their missiles from burning their engines long enough to reach significant speed in the first place, and swat them down.

Close. AAA actually travels at 1c given that it's light, but as I'm sure you're aware, it's extremely inaccurate.



As you can see, it's very nearly a stealth fighter with a huge warhead and crazy engines.

EDIT: I made myself sad

I've always seen "beam cannons" as particle beams of some sort as the huge glowy shaft of death and loud whooshing noises don't match the way lasers work. Thus they would have mass and be c-fractional rather than c.

[Polpolion]

I've always seen "beam cannons" as particle beams of some sort as the huge glowy shaft of death and loud whooshing noises don't match the way lasers work. Thus they would have mass and be c-fractional rather than c.

You very well may be right. I heard the term "photon beam cannon" somewhere in FS2 and assumed it was just another laser. Still, even with a c fractional beam cannon, that missile is the solution to all of the GTVA's woes. Just send it strait into the maw of a Sathanas, and those arms are coming off.

[Scotty]

*Looks at picture*

Invisible to any ship?  Yeah.  That happens.  Or rather, ship won't see ejecta plume?  Not likely.  Easily shot down well before 1 km separation point (which is ridiculously close for a c fractional object.

[Woolie Wool]

You sure? Sathanas-class ships can detect stealth fighters with their AWACS systems.

I think the GTVA and Shivans should invest in thermal imaging systems for their ships. Spaceships are hot (in comparison to space, even the contents of your freezer would be very hot and very visible), and space is cold, and there's no real way to hide that no matter what you do.

[Polpolion]

*Looks at picture*

Invisible to any ship?  Yeah.  That happens.  Or rather, ship won't see ejecta plume?  Not likely.  Easily shot down well before 1 km separation point (which is ridiculously close for a c fractional object.

The missile's engines don't fire constantly. The only way to evade this missile is to magically fix AAA (Even this won't help if beams are c-fractional) or to simply get lucky and see it and leave. Given subspace tracking technology and jump drive recharge times, it will take at most two missiles to down any T/V ship. I dunno about Shivan vessels, though.

[Mav]

... and Core Consortium. ...

Having played TA, maybe? I'd really like to see Core space fighters in HTL FSO .

and a lot of things that I put into it (like ships with arrays of turrets that track and fire as a unit, volleys of multiple independently-targeted missiles, use of beam-type weapons by pretty much everyone, and various ship designs I had drawn up with un-FS featurs like multipart turrets mounted on the sides) are impractical or impossible to replicate in FS.

Multiple-target missile volleys seem possible by now, I saw this in some thread ( please detail how you think they should work... ) .
Use of beam weapons by everyone is a balance and story issue - put it far into the future of FS2.
And I think multipart-turrets, at least if pointing straight sideways, were also fixed a long time ago... I dunno about arbitrarily angled multipart turrets.

[Woolie Wool]

Use of beam weapons by everyone is a balance and story issue - put it far into the future of FS2.
And I think multipart-turrets, at least if pointing straight sideways, were also fixed a long time ago... I dunno about arbitrarily angled multioart turrets.

Halcyon is not in the future of FS2; it uses an entirely different--there is no GTVA (but rather the United Terran Republic), no Vasudans (humans, Akisans, Kizomir, Coldraloans, Gri Sla, Gralach, Zraluk, and Zaal are the eight species), no subspace ("jumpspace" is the FTL handwavium of choice), different shields (they act more like a solid invisible wall rather than a glowy energy sheath and are only on capships, not fighters), etc. Relative to FS's timeline, it's actually in the "past" (although nothing in FS happens in Halcyon), with the present day being in early 2298. The problem with such use of beams is that the AI have unnatural accuracy with them and it generally sends mission balance to hell.

[FlayedOne]

Close. AAA actually travels at 1c given that it's light, but as I'm sure you're aware, it's extremely inaccurate.

-snip-

As you can see, it's very nearly a stealth fighter with a huge warhead and crazy engines.

EDIT: I made myself sad

Think about this:
- it would take a lot of time to accelerate to those c-fraction speed with conventional engines meaning, the ship it was targeting would very well be gone
- it would take a lot of time and heatsinks to lower the heat output to render it invisible
- you cant bind everything by game physics except your missle:P

Either we accept that game physics are only for gameplay purposes and FS reality is more realistic(nothing is bound by game physics) or we decide that game physics are FS reality physics and then everything is bound. You can't mix'n'match.

[headdie]

I thought this thread was about debating how the GTVA would defend itself against the next Shivan incursion, in which case our reality has absolutely no place here as it has no effect in the FS universe

[Polpolion]

Hold up a second, I'm confused: I thought we were talking using only realistic physics in this debate. You guys aren't allowed to use subspace in this discussion because it hasn't been verified as true. It may very well be possible that subspace exists in the real world, but it also may very well be possible that if anyone enters subspace they're unavoidably and immediately rent into pieces. Sure, I'll give you that the missile will not only be very visible and identifiable during acceleration, maneuvering, and evasion, and that any ship could easily enter subspace upon sight of the missile in Freespace, but within the context of this discussion we cannot assume that subspace would work as it does in freespace.

EDIT: In fact, the active sensors on the missile would pretty much announce right where it is. You'd still run into the trouble of actually hitting it, though. You figure that if you shoot it and then change velocity, the missile will change as well. So unless you maintain constant velocity, unguided munitions are completely out of the question. Even with guided weapons, their guidance system still has to get over the chaff and flare. This missile wouldn't have to worry about that so much because it's rather difficult to do that for larger ships. As for beams, that's probably your best bet to overcome this missile. Bear in mind that the farther away the missile is, not only is it harder to hit the missile with your beam, but the laser will be inherently much less focused and it will require longer to detonate the fuel in the missile. I suppose I could also say that the guidance computer would separate the KE penetrator if the temperature gets dangerously high, making a last ditch attempt to get something on target. So then you'd have to knock that penetration away, but you could do that with pretty much anything (other than laser; the particles would still collide with the ship provided aim is sure enough) because it's just a useless slug without the computer to tell it to deploy flare/chaff.

[headdie]

Hold up a second, I'm confused: I thought we were talking using only realistic physics in this debate. You guys aren't allowed to use subspace in this discussion because it hasn't been verified as true. It may very well be possible that subspace exists in the real world, but it also may very well be possible that if anyone enters subspace they're unavoidably and immediately rent into pieces. Sure, I'll give you that the missile will not only be very visible and identifiable during acceleration, maneuvering, and evasion, and that any ship could easily enter subspace upon sight of the missile in Freespace, but within the context of this discussion we cannot assume that subspace would work as it does in freespace.

I refer back to the title

Changes to GTVA needed to defend against Shivans

and the opening post

Hello,

What changes to GTVA do you think are needed in order to be able to defend against Shivan menace in the post-FS2 period?

thus reality has nothing to do with the subject