[Scotty]

I think it was a fortitude save.  Crucifixion forces a fortitude save (DC 10 + consititution modifier) every 15 minutes.  The cross also had a Damage Ability (Constitution) enchantment, once an hour.

Jesus also had the Regeneration ability.

[Ford Prefect]

And you know this how exactly? For all the bullcrap regularly feed about Marian veneration, even in Catholic publications, I've never seen it actually happen.

EDIT: In fact, I have to state that in my twenty-odd years of Catholicism before taking up the cause of humanistic deconversion, and also having regularly visited Lutheran, Menonite, and Baptist churches, I can't recall ever encountering a Marian "idol" even when the Church I attended every Sunday was Saint Mary's. The closest thing that comes to mind and the only actual depiction of Mary was that Saint Mary's did have a quite beautiful Pieta copy, but it was in the Parish Hall.

One could more readily argue that the statue of Gregory the Great out front of Saint Gregory the Great up the hill in Scripps is an "idol" even though repeated vandalism of its bronze quill was more its fate while I still attended.

Marian images are quite commonplace expressions of Catholic piety, it's true, but they typicially are neither explictly Mary alone, being always a twofer with the Baby Jesus, nor placed in a church; they are personal items, placed on walls as a visual reminder, or under mattresses for the protection of the child who sleeps there.

It's not an event you wait around to witness; it's a general attitude ingrained in Catholic and Orthodox theology. The liturgy of these traditions is chalk full of rites and devotions dedicated to Mary. She even has side chapels dedicated to her in many cathedrals. You may not have been overwhelmed with examples of it in your own experiences-- which is completely plausible, since Catholicism in the U.S. is not a complete cross-section of the denomination-- but it's definitely there.

Ultimately, I don't think anyone is going to get anywhere in this debate, least of all the people who feel a personal stake in it. If you think Marian veneration is idolatry, that's pretty much the end of it; you're probably not a Roman Catholic. If you think Ikons are graven images, you're probably not Orthodox. It's all contingent upon people's cultural backgrounds and their own ideas about the nature of god. If a consensus hasn't been reached in the two millennia of the religion's history, I doubt it's going to happen here.

[tinfoil]

I skipped four pages and went from Twilight bashing to Jesus's hitpoints, something about Catholicism and "You're wrong". I actually checked again to make sure I was still in the same thread.

Only on HLP.  

[NGTM-1R]

It's not an event you wait around to witness; it's a general attitude ingrained in Catholic and Orthodox theology. The liturgy of these traditions is chalk full of rites and devotions dedicated to Mary. She even has side chapels dedicated to her in many cathedrals. You may not have been overwhelmed with examples of it in your own experiences-- which is completely plausible, since Catholicism in the U.S. is not a complete cross-section of the denomination-- but it's definitely there.

I assume you can provide specifics then? Because I honestly don't believe it's anything nearly as much as anyone here is making it out to be.

[General Battuta]

I think it was a fortitude save.  Crucifixion forces a fortitude save (DC 10 + consititution modifier) every 15 minutes.  The cross also had a Damage Ability (Constitution) enchantment, once an hour.

Well, then, he can't be a greater deity, can he?

Jesus also had the Regeneration ability.

Pffft, then he wouldn't have died.

[Mongoose]

we're not fools mongoose... but those idols of mary in churches aren't there just to look pretty... they're worshipped.

There's a wonderful irony in that statement, considering that you're sitting there telling me, an active practitioner of the denomination, what I believe.

It's not an event you wait around to witness; it's a general attitude ingrained in Catholic and Orthodox theology. The liturgy of these traditions is chalk full of rites and devotions dedicated to Mary. She even has side chapels dedicated to her in many cathedrals. You may not have been overwhelmed with examples of it in your own experiences-- which is completely plausible, since Catholicism in the U.S. is not a complete cross-section of the denomination-- but it's definitely there.

I assume you can provide specifics then? Because I honestly don't believe it's anything nearly as much as anyone here is making it out to be.

I can confirm that larger churches (such as basilicas) tend to have side chapels/shrines dedicated to a particular veneration of Mary, and even my own home parish has a statue of her off to the side near the front (Joseph gets to chill in the back, for whatever reason).  That being said, the spirit of what you wrote still holds true, as these images are emphatically not worshiped, at least not in any legitimate sense of that word.  Ford Prefect does have a point in that the other side of the debate most likely just isn't going to accept that, but there it is just the same.

[TrashMan]

So that's divine rank 0, right? Or do I have to go look up the rules for avatars? What's the Christian/Muslim/Jewish god, anyway, a major deity or an overgod?

Compared to D&D "gods", on their scale?

Uber-super-extra-massive-ultimate over-god

In Christian, Jewish, and Moslem faith, there is only ONE God, which you're well aware of. I'm not familiar with the entire scope of Islamic views on God, as I'm a Christian, but there is certainly no power above God, and no power can commit action without the "concent" of God, so-to-say. That, I'm sure, is consitant regardless of the religion.

I've read the Koran... it's the same as the Bible really overall. And so is Allah. Same thing, different name.

I wouldn't be surprised if God came down tomrrow and said. "You morons. I'm neither the Lord, or Allah or Jehowh. Call me Bob!"

[Commander Zane]

I wouldn't be surprised if God came down tomrrow and said. "You morons. I'm neither the Lord, or Allah or Jehowh. Call me Bob!"

That would be so freaking awesome.

[Turambar]

I wouldn't be surprised if God came down tomrrow and said. "You morons. I'm neither the Lord, or Allah or Jehowh. Call me Bob!"

That would be so freaking awesome.

I wouldn't have to be an atheist anymore!  That could take some adjustment.

[Inquisitor]

I think the D&D angle needs its own topic, its awesome. I was avoiding the Twilight discussion because, well, its Twilight. The D&D angle is made from pure "win" as the kids say

[Jeff Vader]

Totally. Two pages of off-topic justifies a split. Even if it is good off-topic.

[Inquisitor]

The pure blashpemy and total rules lawyer geekdom makes me giggle

I would be horrifying to my namesakes.

[StarSlayer]

I'm surprised the Emperor of Mankind hasn't made an appearance.   

[Flipside]

Jesus saves.

Everyone else takes normal damage.

Sorry, I had to...

[Topgun]

we're not fools mongoose... but those idols of mary in churches aren't there just to look pretty... they're worshipped.

There's a wonderful irony in that statement, considering that you're sitting there telling me, an active practitioner of the denomination, what I believe.

It's not an event you wait around to witness; it's a general attitude ingrained in Catholic and Orthodox theology. The liturgy of these traditions is chalk full of rites and devotions dedicated to Mary. She even has side chapels dedicated to her in many cathedrals. You may not have been overwhelmed with examples of it in your own experiences-- which is completely plausible, since Catholicism in the U.S. is not a complete cross-section of the denomination-- but it's definitely there.

I assume you can provide specifics then? Because I honestly don't believe it's anything nearly as much as anyone here is making it out to be.

I can confirm that larger churches (such as basilicas) tend to have side chapels/shrines dedicated to a particular veneration of Mary, and even my own home parish has a statue of her off to the side near the front (Joseph gets to chill in the back, for whatever reason).  That being said, the spirit of what you wrote still holds true, as these images are emphatically not worshiped, at least not in any legitimate sense of that word.  Ford Prefect does have a point in that the other side of the debate most likely just isn't going to accept that, but there it is just the same.

[/quote]

I didn't mean to insult you or your religion. but my point still stands, Mary is an idol, so is the cross.
you say that are not truly worshiped. I don't think you understand the meaning of idolatry.

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

people with these qualities do not worship per se, yet this is idolatry. idolatry is about giving devotion to anything other than God, not just praying to them. (of course Catholics do pray to Mary, even though it is never stated in the Bible to do so)
also the Cross was never used by first Christians. The cross, like I said before, is a pagan idol.

Pre-Christian cross-like symbols

The cross-shaped sign, represented in its simplest form by a crossing of two lines at right angles, greatly antedates, in both East and West, the introduction of Christianity. It goes back to a very remote period of human civilization. It is supposed to have been used not just for its ornamental value, but also with religious significance.[1]

Some have sought to attach to the widespread use of this sign, in particular in its swastika form, a real ethnographic importance. It may have represented the apparatus used in kindling fire, and thus as the symbol of sacred fire [2] or as a symbol of the sun,[3] denoting its daily rotation. It has also been interpreted as the mystic representation of lightning or of the god of the tempest, and even the emblem of the Aryan pantheon and the primitive Aryan civilization.

Another symbol that has been connected with the cross is the ansated cross (ankh or crux ansata) of the ancient Egyptians, which often appears as a symbolic sign in the hands of the goddess Sekhet, and appears as a hieroglyphic sign of life or of the living.[4] In later times the Egyptian Christians (Copts), attracted by its form, and perhaps by its symbolism, adopted it as the emblem of the cross (Gayet, "Les monuments coptes du Musée de Boulaq" in "Mémoires de le mission française du Caire", VIII, fasc. III, 1889, p. 18, pl. XXXI–XXXII & LXX–LXXI).

In the Bronze Age we meet in different parts of Europe a more accurate representation of the cross, as conceived in Christian art, and in this shape it was soon widely diffused. This more precise characterization coincides with a corresponding general change in customs and beliefs. The cross is now met with, in various forms, on many objects: fibulas, cinctures, earthenware fragments, and on the bottom of drinking vessels. De Mortillet is of opinion that such use of the sign was not merely ornamental, but rather a symbol of consecration, especially in the case of objects pertaining to burial. In the proto-Etruscan cemetery of Golasecca every tomb has a vase with a cross engraved on it. True crosses of more or less artistic design have been found in Tiryns, at Mycenæ, in Crete, and on a fibula from Vulci.

    The material in this section is a slightly abbreviated copy of text in the public-domain Catholic Encyclopedia reproduced in full in Wikisource.

also it doesn't make any sense to use a cross in worship. If your son died from a car crash, would you use an image of a car in your worship? think about it, why would God want people to worship Him using the same object of execution that was used to murder His son?

some more interesting info:

Early Christian use

During the first two centuries of Christianity, the cross may have been rare in Christian iconography, as it depicts a purposely painful and gruesome method of public execution. The Ichthys, or fish symbol, was used by early Christians. The Chi-Rho monogram, which was adopted by Constantine I in the fourth century as his banner (see labarum), was another Early Christian symbol of wide use.

[Scotty]

I don't think you understand the meaning of idolatry.

However, unless you are reading a different translation than I am, neither of those instances is idolatry.  1st Commandment says 'no other god before Me.'  Pretty straightforward, and neither Mary nor the cross are held higher than God.  2nd Commandment says 'no carved or graven image of heaven or hell.'  Also straightforward, also not a violation, since both Mary and the cross are worldly.

The cross, like I said before, is a pagan idol.

And Christmas, little fun fact, was a pagan holiday.  Christianity absorbed little blips like that to build a little more ethos with potential converts.  Fact is, we don't really know what day Jesus was born.  That said, what it was before is moot.  What it is now is a symbol of Christ's suffering.

If your son died from a car crash, would you use an image of a car in your worship? think about it, why would God want people to worship Him using the same object of execution that was used to murder His son?

Does not follow.  Jesus's death was not an accident.  That could be attributed to wanting to symbolize the immense pain and suffering for us without skirting the line about not making any graven images of heaven.

[Topgun]

I don't think you understand the meaning of idolatry.

1.However, unless you are reading a different translation than I am, neither of those instances is idolatry.  1st Commandment says 'no other god before Me.'  Pretty straightforward, and neither Mary nor the cross are held higher than God.  2nd Commandment says 'no carved or graven image of heaven or hell.'  Also straightforward, also not a violation, since both Mary and the cross are worldly.

The cross, like I said before, is a pagan idol.

2.And Christmas, little fun fact, was a pagan holiday.  Christianity absorbed little blips like that to build a little more ethos with potential converts.  Fact is, we don't really know what day Jesus was born.  That said, what it was before is moot.  What it is now is a symbol of Christ's suffering.

If your son died from a car crash, would you use an image of a car in your worship? think about it, why would God want people to worship Him using the same object of execution that was used to murder His son?

3.Does not follow.  Jesus's death was not an accident.  That could be attributed to wanting to symbolize the immense pain and suffering for us without skirting the line about not making any graven images of heaven.

1.

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

straight from the Bible.

2. And that makes it okay?

3. Using an image to worship is idolatry. The Hebrews didn't use an image, the first Christians didn't use an image, no where in the Bible does it say that we should use the cross in worship.
cross worship, just like saint worship, Christmas, Easters, All Saints Day, ect, was all added later to make conversion easier. This was not done to promote true Christianity, but to make the church more powerful by making more converts.

[Scotty]

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

1.  Straight from Paul, whereas my counter argument is direct from God through Moses.

2.  And that makes it not okay?  My point was that an object's origins have nothing to do with its purposes presently.  If that were true, celebrating Christmas on the day it is would be some kind of blasphemy, seeing as it used to be a pagan tradition.

3.  Worshipping an image is idolatry.  Using an image to worship is not necessarily the same thing.  Once again, regardless of intention, adoption of those symbols furthered the spread of the message of Christ.  Question:  Do you (or did you, as the case may be) worship the cross or God and Jesus?  It's an important distinction to be made.

[Topgun]

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

1.  Straight from Paul, whereas my counter argument is direct from God through Moses.

2.  And that makes it not okay?  My point was that an object's origins have nothing to do with its purposes presently.  If that were true, celebrating Christmas on the day it is would be some kind of blasphemy, seeing as it used to be a pagan tradition.

3.  Worshipping an image is idolatry.  Using an image to worship is not necessarily the same thing.  Once again, regardless of intention, adoption of those symbols furthered the spread of the message of Christ.  Question:  Do you (or did you, as the case may be) worship the cross or God and Jesus?  It's an important distinction to be made.

1.

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

2. of course that makes it not okay! the example of the golden calf shows that.
when Aaron said that the festival was for Yaweh, did that make it okay?

3.

or on Earth beneath[/b], or in the waters under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them. For I, Yaweh your God, am a jealous God.

Besides, you just said that the cross was added later on by the church. who decides how to worship God? The Church, or God Himself?

[Scotty]

1.  Really?  You just quoted a guy who was talking about the Bible back when he wasn't in it to justify something he said (talking Paul here).

2. The golden calf is explicitly stated to be used to worship various unnamed "gods" in that very passage, not God as in Yahweh! 

When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, "Come, make us gods [a] who will go before us...They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, 'These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.'

If you are going to bring up examples, bring up the whole example.

3.  If I may ask, what on Earth (heh) is the cross a likeness of?  As for the other point, I'll tell you when I find where God tells people how to worship in the Bible.