Author Topic: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)  (Read 30214 times)

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Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
|I never understood why people complain about Ewoks body slamming the Empire's best. Sure it was absurd but y'know, Good v Evil, and it's Holywood, so Evil is going down....

Return of the Jedi was originally going to feature Wookiees until Lucas decided that Ewoks were more marketable to the primary target audience (children, whose critical thinking powers are extremely limited). It would have made a lot more sense if the original plan of 7-foot-tall berserk ape-man-things with guns attacking the stormtroopers had been carried out. But Lucas surmised (rightly, unfortunately) that children's movies don't have to make any sense.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
The last two big wars we've been in have been big lessons in strategic humility. I see no reason why we would have become less fallible by the year Avatar is set.

Basically it doesn't work because this is a mining op. They need to clear an area and a field of fire and then sit on it, and the devil take the rest of the planet. They have more than enough firepower to accomplish this task in the face of all and sundry. This is a tactic that is very familar to people engaged in protecting a fixed asset and has been for a very long time. It's pretty much the one of choice.

It's not what happened. Instead the colonel came up with some gollywoggle plan to "crush their morale" straight out of a British general staff obession from one of the World Wars, ignoring his Clausewitz in the process, and exposing his most limited asset, his troops, to unnecessary risk when he could have simply sat in a bunkerline until the Na'vi realized the futility of assaulting strong fixed posistions, or were all dead.

He had a perfect solution right in front of him, and any squad leader would have known it. Why didn't he take it?

Because he's Evil Stupid.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
No, because - as he stated in the movie - he believed they would be completely overwhelmed by massive numbers of the enemy if they remained there.

His 'crush their morale' plan was right out of the modern US playbook.

Furthermore their mining ops were afield, not in their base. They could not sit in their base without wasting vast amounts of time and money. The corporation would not have stood for it.

His decision made tactical and strategic sense.

The argument that he was Evil Stupid is a silly one, because his plan worked perfectly. He was right on target to end the native threat crushingly, until the entire planetary noosphere launched an unprecedented and utterly unpredictable attack on his troops.

Any argument against Quaritch's strategy is sabotaged by the fact that it worked. Ironically, they would have been even more screwed if they had remained in their base, where the eventual planetary assault would have annihilated them.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 12:43:05 am by General Battuta »

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
No, because - as he stated in the movie - he believed they would be completely overwhelmed by massive numbers of the enemy if they remained there.

A belief that is, at best, silly. He had a secure line of retreat to orbit and a secure supply line the same way which the Na'vi had no real method of interrupting. As long as the ammunition holds out, he can hold his line in the face of all and sundry, up to and including the entire ****ing planet.

The human wave attack, or the Na'vi-wave attack, or any sort of wave attack, is a dead tactic and has been since the First World War. This argument is bull****.

His 'crush their morale' plan was right out of the modern US playbook.

So's mine. It's also generally more successful. We can start listing the successes of the defensive approach with Roarke's Drift through to Khe Son and on to today's Afghan conflict. Fighting a modern force in strong fixed posistions without a strong presence of your own supporting arms is always, without exception, doomed to fail.

His plan, on the other hand, has frequent failures to its name. Why go with a strategy that can lose when you have one where victory is assured?

Furthermore their mining ops were afield, not in their base. They could not sit in their base without wasting vast amounts of time and money. The corporation would not have stood for it.

THEN WHY DID THEY PUT THE BASE THERE?

AND WHY DON'T THEY MAKE OTHERS!?

They're not just going to conform to your desires for them to act dumb, y'know.

Any argument against Quaritch's strategy is sabotaged by the fact that it worked. Ironically, they would have been even more screwed if they had remained in their base, where the eventual planetary assault would have annihilated them.

Doesn't work. He didn't have to "win" anything, he just had to stand a guard, so his whole strategy was a timewasting boondoggle. Even the whole planet thrown at them would have failed in the final analysis, or at least they would have managed a retreat to orbit in good order before the ammo ran out.

Put simply, he forgot his mission. I don't think that's something that makes sense in this situation especially, as he's employed by a group that's going to look very unkindly on such things.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
I don't like the personal tone this is taking. We're arguing about an SF movie. Could you please back down a bit? I haven't done anything to insult you personally so far as I know.

He had no secure line of retreat or supply: his two vulnerable spaceplanes could be grounded by sheer mass of Na'vi flyers. We don't even know if there was a ship in orbit to help him out, let alone any supplies at all.

He did not have enough ammunition to kill all the Na'vi out there. He could not have held his base.

The base was not built on the new deposits because the new deposits had only been opened within the past few days after years of work near the original base site. C'mon, why the yelling? This makes perfect sense.

Having the whole planet thrown at him - or even all the Na'vi - would have annihilated his entire base and every person under his command.

Not to mention corporate pressure to stay on timetable, since their operation was apparently close to going into the red.

There was no relief coming for maybe years, and possibly no line of retreat.

It all made sense.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
And, again, his plan worked. You're suffering from the Gurkha Experiment fallacy: contamination by hindsight.

Were it not for the totally unforeseeable planetary uprising his brilliant work would have been lauded as genius.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
I don't like the personal tone this is taking. We're arguing about an SF movie. Could you please back down a bit? I haven't done anything to insult you personally so far as I know.

I'm insulting the character, not you. :P I thought this was clear. However the comment about "conform to your desire for them to be stupid" is basically something you've fired at many and sundry in other threads in bluntest terms.

He had no secure line of retreat or supply: his two vulnerable spaceplanes could be grounded by sheer mass of Na'vi flyers. We don't even know if there was a ship in orbit to help him out, let alone any supplies at all.

I don't think the spaceplanes made the trip alone. I'm pretty sure you don't either. The total lack of a ship in orbit is unlikely at best, since they can just leave it there (orbit's a gentle resting place) without it costing anything and loading it up until the next arrives, then send the one they've got home. Lather rinse repeat. The Na'vi are not flying things that that can move and strike rapidly. Clearing local airspace for an escape or landing should be quite possible.

He did not have enough ammunition to kill all the Na'vi out there. He could not have held his base.

He doesn't need to kill them all. The less-organized a force is, the fewer casualities are required to render it combat ineffective. This is basic tactics. Even the best-disciplined units will rarely continue to press an attack after 30% casualities, though they may reform and try again. A group like the Na'vi you have to kill relatively few of them to drive them off. Total destruction of the enemy's fighting forces is nice, but rarely necessary or required.

The base was not built on the new deposits because the new deposits had only been opened within the past few days after years of work near the original base site. C'mon, why the yelling? This makes perfect sense.

There is one, and only one, way to effectively defend something. This is to guard it. Anything else is suspect. This will dealt with later at length.

Having the whole planet thrown at him - or even all the Na'vi - would have annihilated his entire base and every person under his command.

Tactical and strategic precendent of the British Empire argues this is patently untrue. Khe Son and similar actions from Vietnam reinforce the case. Given the disparity in sophistication is even greater here, and the disparity in numbers is probably less, I see no reason to abandon precedent.

Not to mention corporate pressure to stay on timetable, since their operation was apparently close to going into the red.

Which is more reason not to initate risky offensive actions but simply stand the watch as you were hired to.

There was no relief coming for maybe years, and possibly no line of retreat.

It all made sense.

See above precendents. Also this argues against the first point about no ship in orbit. We've come a long way from the Jamestown settlement. A Way Out is going to be more or less required when you're that totally isolated that you can't even communicate.

And, again, his plan worked. You're suffering from the Gurkha Experiment fallacy: contamination by hindsight.

Were it not for the totally unforeseeable planetary uprising his brilliant work would have been lauded as genius.

Put bluntly, this is not true. Crushing their morale as a strategy has never worked. The Brits talked endlessly about it in the World Wars, but it didn't work. Japan built their entire warfighting strategy around it after Tsushima in 1905 and lost World War II because of it. The US tried it in Vietnam and failed. It was tried again in Iraq and Afghanistan...and failed again, something the US explicitly recognized several years ago. It fails by default dealing with a force as disorganized and dispersed as the Na'vi. They simply don't have the organization to sue for peace in a meaningful fashion or to enforce a peace on their own, so breaking their morale is, at best, a temporary solution and very likely to be ineffective.

Always, always, dealing with a guerilla enemy, the path to victory has been to defend soundly. Whether it has been seeing ships to a safe and timely arrival on the opposite shore, letting the enemy shatter himself against your fixed defenses and thereby demonstrate the utter futility of his war, or ensuring basic services and needs of the local populace are met and they are kept safe, defense is, was, and always has been the only answer. One may be proactive in defense, but defense remains the only reliable, successful answer to such a strategic problem, as unsatisifying an answer as it may be.
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
I had a reply, but then HLP ate it as I was trying to post. :doubt:

Anyway, I remember part of it.  It deals with your precedents from the British Empire.  I noticed you left Isadlwana off your list, which was probably intentional on your part, where an entire battalion of British infantry were massacred to the last man by the Zulus.  Interesting precedent there.

The other part dealt with the ship and how the only evidence so far that it actually stayed is your insistance that it had to have.  Nowhere else does it even hint at the ship still being in orbit, or available if actually there.  We may have come a long way since Jamestown, but history has this funny habit of repeating itself.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
I had a reply, but then HLP ate it as I was trying to post. :doubt:

Anyway, I remember part of it.  It deals with your precedents from the British Empire.  I noticed you left Isadlwana off your list, which was probably intentional on your part, where an entire battalion of British infantry were massacred to the last man by the Zulus.  Interesting precedent there.

I left that off the list because, having studied the battle a bit, and also the ones that occurred in the other Columns during the first invasion of Zululand and the battle of Ulundi in the second invasion, I know that it was a fluke. (Though simply listing all the other similar engagements the British won in other places, like the Ashanti expeditions or the Sudan, would prove that.) Poor deployments and overeager British subordinate commanders combined to nullify firepower advantages; the battle was lost well before a lack of ammunition became a factor.

So actually, including that particular engagement is an argument for my point of view, in that it demonstrates the danger of offensive action in a situation where the numbers are much against you, and argues that your main concern should be to preserve your firepower advantages by maintaining a position with a good field of fire and letting them come to you.

The other part dealt with the ship and how the only evidence so far that it actually stayed is your insistance that it had to have.  Nowhere else does it even hint at the ship still being in orbit, or available if actually there.  We may have come a long way since Jamestown, but history has this funny habit of repeating itself.

True, but without evidence either way, this argument is pointless.
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Offline The E

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
Ahh, but while there is no evidence, there are hard indications. Word of God says there are 12 interstellar liners making the round trip. So, in theory, a ship could be arriving every 6 Months. Assuming that the entirety of our protagonists official mission fits into 3 Months from his Arrival to the Colonel's offer to send him out, one could assume that each ship spends at least those three months on station doing refits and refueling and all that.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
at the end of the movie, the humans left, f there was not a ship in orbit where did they leave to?

also it makes sense that there would be a freighter of some sort, they would spend a few years filling an empty cargo bay with ore, then the full ship would leave when a new empty one arrived.
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Offline Black Wolf

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
On the question of the mine, anyone who's ever spent any time in the mining industry will tell you that you never build your infrastructure on or even too close to your ore body, simply because they're extremely difficult to map out accurately, and the last thing you want to have to do is rip up your camp or processing facility because there's millions of dollars worth of ore under it. In fact, companies spend a lot of money doing sterilization drilling of camp and mill sites often several kilometers away from their ore body to ensure that doesn't happen.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
I think we've satisfactorily demonstrated that both sides have good arguments and that people are just going to think whatever they want to think.

 

Offline blowfish

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
This is Sci-Fi.  We're talking about how realistic/believable it is.

Guys, what's wrong with this picture?

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
Nothing.

 

Offline Androgeos Exeunt

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
This is Sci-Fi.  We're talking about how realistic/believable it is.

Guys, what's wrong with this picture?

I don't see any picture. Maybe it's my browser.
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Offline Ransom

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
As a matter of fact, I rather like this picture. Very Beksinski-esque.

 

Offline esarai

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
Well one thing I think the "defend defend defend" proponents are missing is that the humans' base has automated gun turrets every 10m along the outer perimeter.  For Quaritch, his base was defended, and hence attack was seen as an option.

<Nuclear>   truth: the good samaritan actually checked for proof of citizenship and health insurance
<Axem>   did anyone catch jesus' birth certificate?
<Nuclear>   and jesus didnt actually give the 5000 their fish...he gave it to the romans and let it trickle down
<Axem>and he was totally pro tax breaks
<Axem>he threw out all those tax collectors at the temple
<Nuclear>   he drove a V8 camel too
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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
Since the entire planet was fighting against the humans at that point, couldn't the sacred tree just have one of the floating mountains drop on the base? That would be a very quick finish.

 

Offline blowfish

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
Abiotic things like rocks are not part of the biosphere.