Author Topic: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)  (Read 30155 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
Also worth remembering that simple defense wasn't really an options for the humans. They were there to mine, they needed to demonstrate to the locals that they were inassailable if they were going to continue to mine, and they weren't going to get any mining done on a defensive posture.

Given the degree of firepower they had, they really stood no chance of losing, so it was a good call.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
Well one thing I think the "defend defend defend" proponents are missing is that the humans' base has automated gun turrets every 10m along the outer perimeter.  For Quaritch, his base was defended, and hence attack was seen as an option.

That's not an argument on any merits I've posisted. Do you have a point?

Also worth remembering that simple defense wasn't really an options for the humans. They were there to mine, they needed to demonstrate to the locals that they were inassailable if they were going to continue to mine, and they weren't going to get any mining done on a defensive posture.

Given the degree of firepower they had, they really stood no chance of losing, so it was a good call.

How do you demonstrate you're unassailable?

Oh yeah. Not by offensive action. By being unassailable. French and Indian War. Vietnam.

EDIT: Actually it occurs to me his plan was wrong in only one aspect. He wanted to blow the thing up.

He should have tried to take it. In this way he can prepare the battlefield beforehand to enhance his firepower advantages, keep his troops in good order, and most importantly, he could break the back of Na'vi resistance by having a target they must attack. Ulundi all over again. You can still end the movie the same way, if you like, but it would have been a much more rational plan.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 12:57:27 am by NGTM-1R »
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
That could've worked.

The former objection of yours again misses the point that they would lose simply by remaining on the defensive, though. Giving up their mining operation was akin to failure. Holding out for backup could have meant billions (trillions?) in lost revenue.

 

Offline esarai

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
That's not an argument on any merits I've posisted. Do you have a point?
You're right--it's not an argument, is a presentation of evidence intended to demonstrate that the colonel believed he already had a strong enough defense, and felt he had the resources to attack the Na'vi. With a strong defense and no reason to anticipate total defeat in battle, Quaritch views such a mission as within his means without sacrificing any strategic foothold.  His technology is superior and his destructive capability outclasses the Na'vi.  Had the mission failed, he would still be able to retreat and resort to defensive strategy.  The Tree of Souls was a target of opportunity.  He most likely didn't need to hit it, but if he did and still had some of his gunships at the end, he would have gained a more advantageous tactical situation. 

His error occurs when he believes the wildlife on Pandora to be unintelligent and incapable of acting collectively.  If he had believed this, he most likely would not have risked the attack.

I agree with you that "crush the morale" missions are generally ineffective, but only in regards to humans.  We have only tried morale crushing on humans, and thus it stretches logic to assume the Na'vi would have the same resilience to Shock and Awe that humans do.  We live in a society where our lives are so complex that losing something like the Vatican would not be as crushing as losing the Tree of Souls would be to the Na'vi.  The Na'vi organize their life around the Tree of Souls and their connection to Eywa.  Part of the Na'vi lives in Eywa, in the Tree, and killing it would kill part of them.  Destroying the Tree would fundamentally undo Na'vi civilization.
<Nuclear>   truth: the good samaritan actually checked for proof of citizenship and health insurance
<Axem>   did anyone catch jesus' birth certificate?
<Nuclear>   and jesus didnt actually give the 5000 their fish...he gave it to the romans and let it trickle down
<Axem>and he was totally pro tax breaks
<Axem>he threw out all those tax collectors at the temple
<Nuclear>   he drove a V8 camel too
<Nuclear>   with a sword rack for his fully-automatic daggers

Esarai: hey gaiz, what's a good improvised, final attack for a ship fighting to buy others time to escape to use?
RangerKarl|AtWork: stick your penis in the warp core
DarthGeek: no don't do that
amki: don't EVER do that

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
That could've worked.

The former objection of yours again misses the point that they would lose simply by remaining on the defensive, though. Giving up their mining operation was akin to failure. Holding out for backup could have meant billions (trillions?) in lost revenue.

I never argued that they should give up the mining operation, only that they were better served by strong defense of it then attacking the Na'vi in an effort to "defend" the operation.

You're right--it's not an argument, is a presentation of evidence intended to demonstrate that the colonel believed he already had a strong enough defense, and felt he had the resources to attack the Na'vi. With a strong defense and no reason to anticipate total defeat in battle, Quaritch views such a mission as within his means without sacrificing any strategic foothold.  His technology is superior and his destructive capability outclasses the Na'vi.  Had the mission failed, he would still be able to retreat and resort to defensive strategy.  The Tree of Souls was a target of opportunity.  He most likely didn't need to hit it, but if he did and still had some of his gunships at the end, he would have gained a more advantageous tactical situation.

Infantry tactics and terrain 101; jungles are very bad places to act on the offensive because they completely blunt firepower advantages, play hell with supporting arms due to their short sightlines, and ruin unit cohesion. It was true in the Ashanti expedition for the Brits, it was true in the South Pacific in WW2, it was true in Vietnam. You can't kill what you can't see, and in jungle terrain you can be close enough to your enemies to smell them or hear them breathe and be unable to locate them. Quaritch basically throws away  most or all of his advantages of superior firepower and technology by commiting to this course of action.

I agree with you that "crush the morale" missions are generally ineffective, but only in regards to humans.  We have only tried morale crushing on humans, and thus it stretches logic to assume the Na'vi would have the same resilience to Shock and Awe that humans do.  We live in a society where our lives are so complex that losing something like the Vatican would not be as crushing as losing the Tree of Souls would be to the Na'vi.  The Na'vi organize their life around the Tree of Souls and their connection to Eywa.  Part of the Na'vi lives in Eywa, in the Tree, and killing it would kill part of them.  Destroying the Tree would fundamentally undo Na'vi civilization.

The colonel was ultimately trained to fight other humans, however, and given how readily he ignored the science team, we have no reason to believe (hell, I don't think we can take for granted even the science team knew the details) he really understood this of the Na'vi. He adopted a strategy that would dissipate his advantages regardless of the final effectiveness of his plan, but we don't actually know it would have been effective. The Na'vi are not presented as so completely inhuman that applying our pyschology to them stretches anything.

Given the title of this thread, all you should actually need to know about such things is that they didn't work on less-developed societies either. Destroying a civilization in this fashion is never truly effective. What Quaritch needed to do, and what the plan I propose would have brought him, would be to bring a large force of Na'vi to battle and defeat them in detail, giving concrete results instead of maybe winning his morale-crushing victory or maybe making every Na'vi on the planet turn up to kick his ass.

That was why I drew the comparison to Ulundi. The mere raid is not going to inflict significant casualities on the Na'vi as they're not organized enough to stand up and take significant casualities when surprised. They're just going to disappear. But if you present something that insults their honor, that they must take back no matter the cost, you can bring a significant portion of them to battle and have a good chance of killing them all because even they will reform for multiple attempts.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
NGTM-1R, again:

A 'strong defense' of the mining operation was not possible because the stuff they were attempting to mine was in Na'vi territory.

Thus the entire operation to bring down Hometree and relocate the Na'vi.

 

Offline Killer Whale

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
I liked it

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
Also, um:

Quote
What Quaritch needed to do, and what the plan I propose would have brought him, would be to bring a large force of Na'vi to battle and defeat them in detail, giving concrete results instead of maybe winning his morale-crushing victory or maybe making every Na'vi on the planet turn up to kick his ass.

This happened in the movie. It was what the last hour of the movie was.

 
Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
 :bump:

Sig nuked! New one coming soon!

 

Offline esarai

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
Meh, so what?  Still doesn't stop this movie from being awesome.
<Nuclear>   truth: the good samaritan actually checked for proof of citizenship and health insurance
<Axem>   did anyone catch jesus' birth certificate?
<Nuclear>   and jesus didnt actually give the 5000 their fish...he gave it to the romans and let it trickle down
<Axem>and he was totally pro tax breaks
<Axem>he threw out all those tax collectors at the temple
<Nuclear>   he drove a V8 camel too
<Nuclear>   with a sword rack for his fully-automatic daggers

Esarai: hey gaiz, what's a good improvised, final attack for a ship fighting to buy others time to escape to use?
RangerKarl|AtWork: stick your penis in the warp core
DarthGeek: no don't do that
amki: don't EVER do that

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
This happened in the movie. It was what the last hour of the movie was.

No, the last hour of the movie wasn't going to do that for reasons I explained.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
I think we had a statement straight from one of the characters that if the Sacred Tree (or whatchamacallit was lost), it was over. The Na'vi were done.

That was their uplink to the planetary noosphere thing.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
And they don't need the uplink to be a problem, because they weren't uplinked while being a problem in the rest of the movie. Witness the repeated brushfire wars with the Native Americans for where just taking out the tree and relocating them ends.

It's Clauswitz again. War is an act of force. You can both kill and demoralize. Killing works better, faster, and much more reliably.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
No. The movie said if they lost the Tree of Good Important Awesomeness that was it. The inside dude on Na'vi culture, the scientists, and the Na'vi themselves seemed to agree that if the tree went down it would be an unacceptable loss and their attempt to remove the humans would fail.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
And people assume they could never live as a paraplegic yet quickly recover their internal "happiness" point if it happens. If you fall and break you leg, you don't think you're a klutz; if you stub your toe in the same place every day for a month, it's hard to avoid that conclusion. A single large shock to the system doesn't have that kind of collapsing effect and, considering the fundemental biological reasons for that, this should apply to the Na'vi as well.

You can either kill them all in one fell swoop or you can repeatedly crush them in combat, thereby demonstrating over a period of time that they're helpless. You can't just go "aha poke this one spot and everyone weeps forever". Pyschology does not work that way.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
I don't think the effect was psychological. With the tree destroyed they'd be cut off from the planetary noosphere and their ancestors. Immortality would literally have been taken from them.

We have no historical precedent that could allow us to understand what effect that might have.

Never mind the fact that Quaritch's plan accomplishes everything you could want from it, and that defensive action is (as explained above) not something they can do.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
@ NGTM-1R: Once again, human psychology doesn't work that way.  We have no way of knowing if Na'vi psychology doesn't.

Killing the tree isn't like breaking an arm, it's like ripping out your eyes.  The arm heals, the eyes don't grow back.  If that happened to the Na'vi, they'd be done.

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
Just saw it at IMAX 3d.  Pretty damn impressive.

I suppose as an addendum.

I liked it, as a technical piece it was outstanding.  The only thing I really think could have been improved was, I can't believe I'm saying this considering how long it already is, more time spent fleshing out the secondary characters.  While I thought Sully and his big blue girlfriend's characters where pretty well done, most of the secondary characters felt like recognizable roles rather then people.  The colonel was the bad guy, the Eytukan was the chief, Tsu'tey was the competitive brave.  It's not even that they where badly acted, heck I think Stephen Lang played a damn good bad ass.  But there wasn't really enough time to connect with any of them say like there was in Dances with Wolves, which is to bad since but for that i really think it was firing on all cylinders.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 09:36:34 pm by StarSlayer »
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Offline Turambar

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
It could have been anything, really.  They might have destroyed the tree and just cut off that area's Eywa internet access, or the destruction of that tree could have caused a massive shock, crippling the planet for some time.
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Offline Kazan

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
as i expected in this thread:

The conservatives are butthurt
the liberals are like "no... he really didn't say that.. no the people were being reasonable" [or they don't care]
the Independants (TM) don't care


and I think the movie totally rocked.
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