[Kosh]

'nuff said

There have been more attacks on churches in Malaysia, in a growing dispute over the use of the word Allah by non-Muslims.

The police say petrol bombs were thrown at a church and a convent school in the state of Perak, and at a church in Sarawak on the island of Borneo.

Another church in the south of the country was daubed with black paint.

The attacks come days after four churches near the capital, Kuala Lumpur, were hit by petrol bombs.

Religious tensions in Malaysia have increased since a court ruled last month that a Roman Catholic newspaper could use the word Allah in its Malay-language edition to describe the Christian god.

[General Battuta]

This doesn't seem to speak to Islam at large, only Islam in Malaysia.

[Kosh]

It's just the latest example. Here's a previous example if you forgot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoMeUcC_M20
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4684652.stm

[Colonol Dekker]

I disagree with the topic title as this is just rubberneck reflex. Also the WHOLE religion didn't bomb the church. A more appropriate title would be no place for zealous asshats in this century.

[iamzack]

Dude, based on your evidence... Islam and Christianity both. Muslims kill because somebody drew a picture of Muhammed, Christians kill because some men like it in the butt. I don't see how one is less horrific/retarded than the other.

[Kosh]

Given the strong tendencies for Islam to encourage this type of behavior as well as values that are centuries out of date, how can we expect anything else over something so trivial?

Christians kill because some men like it in the butt

In modern christian dominated countries (the "west") that is a hate crime, but in most Islamic countries they will either throw you in jail or have you executed for having it in the arse. And killing a homosexual? I seriously doubt they would seriously punish anyone who did.

[Polpolion]

I mostly agree with Dekker's sentiments. This most certainly doesn't follow for all followers of Islam, and I would say that there is becoming less and less room for violent intolerance period. People can be as intolerant as they like as long as they're not doing bad to anyone. But how often does that happen with people? Regrettably, essentially never because intolerance by its very nature nearly necessitates that badness.

Anyways, I certainly didn't expect to see a thread of such an intolerant topic condemning an entire faith on what I thought was a fair-minded and level-headed forum.

[General Battuta]

Certainly.

Islam in America does about as well as Christianity in America (arguably a bit better.)

You seem to be confusing the religion with the conditions in which the religion exists.

[Eishtmo]

Dearest Kosh, I'm sure I can come up with dozens of examples of Christans being much, much worse than Muslims in probably every catagory possible, and only a bit of that has to do with Christanity being around longer.  But I won't because I don't want to waste the energy on it.

So I suggest you drop this subject, you'll only make yourself look worse if you continue.

I request this thread be locked now before things get out of hand, and they will.

[Kosh]

How does Islam abroad NOT encourage intolerance?

I request this thread be locked now before things get out of hand, and they will.

It's certainly easier to shutdown anything that isn't PC isnt it?

[High Max]

I am probably not the only one who hates it when some people think that all muslims or Arabs are terrorists and that kind of silly stuff, like many here in USA probably think. It seems that the USA goes through certain phases on who they go to war with. In the 1900's, they had a thing for fighting orientals (Japan, Vietnam, Korea), and now the fad is war against Arabs and Arab countries What's next? Africans? Latin countries?

[iamzack]

In modern christian dominated countries (the "west") that is a hate crime, but in most Islamic countries they will either throw you in jail or have you executed for having it in the arse. And killing a homosexual? I seriously doubt they would seriously punish anyone who did.

Uhm, just because our (supposed) secular government punishes Christians who kill gays doesn't make up for the fact that Christians (modern 1st world born-and-raised Christians, at that!) murder people for being gay. Or looking gay, as the case may be. If the Malaysian government punished Muslims who killed over depictions of Muhammed, would that change anyone's mind about Islam?

[High Max]

And the funny thing about it is murder goes against Christanity, thus making them hypocrites.

[General Battuta]

The whole thread seems to be a case of misattribution. While Islam may encourage radicalism, we have no way of knowing if it does so more than any other religion. The effects of Islam on radicalization cannot be disentangled from the secular economic, political, and cultural environments in which Islam exists. Islam may simply be a middleman between the actual causes and the effects.

Kosh is guilty of oversimplification. We cannot quantify the contribution of the Islam variable with any precision.

[StarSlayer]

I am probably not the only one who hates it when some people think that all muslims or Arabs are terrorists and that kind of silly stuff, like many here in USA probably think. It seems that the USA goes through certain phases on who they go to war with. In the 1900's, they had a thing for fighting orientals (Japan, Vietnam, Korea), and now the fad is war against Arabs and Arab countries What's next? Africans? Latin countries?

Wow what an amazing summarization of history, your analysis of foreign policy and military conflict is staggering.

[Dilmah G]

Fundamentalists for both religions don't belong in this century, or the next. Period.

[Kosh]

Uhm, just because our (supposed) secular government punishes Christians who kill gays doesn't make up for the fact that Christians (modern 1st world born-and-raised Christians, at that!) murder people for being gay.

I never said they didn't, but those views are fringe, not mainstream. In Islamic countries homophobia is the mainstream.

You seem to be confusing the religion with the conditions in which the religion exists.

And if religious fundementalism created those conditions, then what? Do we ignore this because it isn't convenient?

 

The whole thread seems to be a case of misattribution. While Islam may encourage radicalism, we have no way of knowing if it does so more than any other religion.

At this point in time it is. The fact is, Islam is how Christianity USED to be. Whenever I look into what their mainstream views are, it is what christian mainstream views used to be decades, and in some cases centuries ago. Maybe it will someday modernize itself, but you know what? That day hasn't come yet.

Anyways, I certainly didn't expect to see a thread of such an intolerant topic condemning an entire faith on what I thought was a fair-minded and level-headed forum.

Pointing out the intolerance of others is intolerant? Wow.

I did find something interesting:

British libraries are funded by the UK taxpayer to educate and entertain the British
public. Their range of books reflects the breadth of interests of the nation. However
a number of public libraries in the UK stock substantial quantities of literature
preaching violent jihad in the most heavily Muslim areas of the country.

Although this problem exists in numerous public libraries, in Waltham Forest,
Birmingham and Blackburn, the following report mainly focuses on one such library
service – that of Tower Hamlets in east London which has the largest Muslim
population of any London borough. Tower Hamlets’ eight lending libraries contain
several hundred books and audiotapes by radical Islamists, stocking the works and
words of the leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood and Jamaat-e-Islami, many senior
Wahhabi clerics and even preachers who have been convicted in the UK of incitement
to murder.

Many of these books stocked in the Islam section of libraries:

• Glorify acts of terrorism against followers of other religions
• Incite violence against anyone who rejects jihadist ideologies
• Endorse violence and discrimination against women

There's a pdf somewhere in that link with a full report.

EDIT:

I'll also throw in this nice map about homosexuality laws around the world I found in wikipedia:



Purple means legal same sex marriages, light blue means legal partnerships, grey means no recognition (but no prohitibition), orange means significant penalties, maroon means death or life in jail.  Certainly puts things into perspective.

[Polpolion]

Pointing out the intolerance of others is intolerant? Wow.

The thread title speaks for itself:

Why Islam as it stands doesn't belong in this century

[General Battuta]

Kosh, seriously.

You are making the assumption that Islam = intolerance.

When for all we know, bad environment = intolerance, and it so happens that countries with bad environments also tend to be countries with a lot of Islam due to an underlying variable (Islam being popular in Third World nations, Christianity in First World.) Again, Islam may simply be a mediating factor, or an avenue by which tension expresses itself, rather than a source of tension.

You should know better than to tar all Muslims with the same ugly brush. There are happy, tolerant, fair-minded Muslims on this very board. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[High Max]

Ironically, I was watching an episode of Anthony Bordain No Reservations on the travel channel today, and Anthony was in Egypt with Muslims and he got along with them just fine and spent the night in the desert with them and talked and ate a nice meal.