[General Battuta]

Well, I've finished BPDC, and I have to admit I'm a bit saddened by how it all came together. Most Freespace campaigns, inlcuding the two game main campaigns don't have a main character. This is because that character is you; the way that character thinks is shaped by the opinions of the player. The use of an actual character in BP as the protagonist was a risk. The campaign really lost me when Bei started with the metaphysical stuff about his entire life culminating in the encounter with the Vishnans. I played the rest of the campaign through, and I must say the FREDDING and voice acting was superb, but the story just dropped off once the Vishnans showed up. When the fleet arrived in Sol and attacked the United Earth ship, I felt the campaign lost all believability. IMO, the story just fell apart, but the FREDDING and voice work were simply amazing.

 
Most video games use a speaking protagonist, and players identify with them just fine. If you don't like those games, that's fine. Blue Planet is not plain FreeSpace; it's Blue Planet.

You certainly aren't obliged to like the story, but the plot as presented in-game should be coherent and self-explanatory. It doesn't connect with everybody, but a great deal of effort was put into making it believable, consistent, and rich. Both the Vishnans and the events in the last mission were carefully foreshadowed throughout the campaign; you just need to pay attention.

Have you read the fiction on the Blue Planet website? It's not necessary to understand or enjoy the story, but it might quiet some concerns you have.

In any case, the conceit of the non-speaking protagonist is sort of a contrivance that often does a lot to harm suspension of disbelief. I think a lot more is gained by abandoning it than by adhering to an obsolete narrative fixture, but you're free to disagree.

Blue Planet isn't for everybody, and it might not be for you.

[SpardaSon21]

I'll be honest, I really don't like the Vishnans.  I don't feel ascended energy beings like them belong in the FS universe.  Even the nemesis of every subspace-using species, the Shivans, are flesh and blood.

Or to sum up everything: I think BP's mysticism does not fit at all with FS.  We have two games and an expansion, and never added any mysticism.  Mysteries, yes, but they never went off the deep end and claimed Terrans and Vasudans were receiving psychic messages from unknown all-powerful psychic beings.  I find the Shivans being one race of three that existed to create and preserve life takes away a lot from the aura of pure evil they had in FS canon.  I wonder if BP3 is going to turn out like B5's Shadow War with the Vishnans and Shivans killing each other over whether or not humanity gets to stay alive with the Terrans and Vasudans trapped in the middle of these dueling ancients.

EDIT: Let me clarify.  I think BP tells a great, riveting story.  I simply don't think it meshes with the existing FS background very well.

[blowfish]

Well I don't think it was ever supposed to conform to the existing FS universe in that sense...

[General Battuta]

I'll be honest, I really don't like the Vishnans.  I don't feel ascended energy beings like them belong in the FS universe.  Even the nemesis of every subspace-using species, the Shivans, are flesh and blood.

Or to sum up everything: I think BP's mysticism does not fit at all with FS.  We have two games and an expansion, and never added any mysticism.  Mysteries, yes, but they never went off the deep end and claimed Terrans and Vasudans were receiving psychic messages from unknown all-powerful psychic beings.  I find the Shivans being one race of three that existed to create and preserve life takes away a lot from the aura of pure evil they had in FS canon.  I wonder if BP3 is going to turn out like B5's Shadow War with the Vishnans and Shivans killing each other over whether or not humanity gets to stay alive with the Terrans and Vasudans trapped in the middle of these dueling ancients.

EDIT: Let me clarify.  I think BP tells a great, riveting story.  I simply don't think it meshes with the existing FS background very well.

We have an explanation for the Vishnans and Shivans that is rooted in the very, very first elements of canon that most FreeSpace players ever saw.

There are no all-powerful psychic beings.

The only information you have on the Vishnans is what you got from Samuel Bei, which was fed to him by the Vishnans directly. You shouldn't assume that anything is as simple as 'destroy life' vs. 'preserve life.'

FreeSpace has always been quite mystical. If you think the Shivans were ever portrayed as pure evil, though, you're not paying attention.

The BP team actually spends a lot of time with hard SF. Don't confuse mystery with far-out mysticism.

Lastly, this is Blue Planet. This is not FS3.

[High Max]

;-)

[Zex Marquise]

I'll be honest, I really don't like the Vishnans.  I don't feel ascended energy beings like them belong in the FS universe.  Even the nemesis of every subspace-using species, the Shivans, are flesh and blood.

Or to sum up everything: I think BP's mysticism does not fit at all with FS.  We have two games and an expansion, and never added any mysticism.  Mysteries, yes, but they never went off the deep end and claimed Terrans and Vasudans were receiving psychic messages from unknown all-powerful psychic beings.  I find the Shivans being one race of three that existed to create and preserve life takes away a lot from the aura of pure evil they had in FS canon.  I wonder if BP3 is going to turn out like B5's Shadow War with the Vishnans and Shivans killing each other over whether or not humanity gets to stay alive with the Terrans and Vasudans trapped in the middle of these dueling ancients.

EDIT: Let me clarify.  I think BP tells a great, riveting story.  I simply don't think it meshes with the existing FS background very well.

On the contrary, I believe that the Shivans have been alluded to as metaphysical janitors since the cutscenes of Freespace 1. Freespace has long been steeped in Hindu mythology. Even the word "Vasuda" is the sanskrit word for Earth. The slaying of Ravana via Helios (Sun god) bombs is a particularly tongue-in-cheek reference, as avatar Rama performed a prayer to the Sun god Aditya in order to gain the strength required to shoot his arrow through the chest of Ravana, killing him.

Perhaps this is just because I enjoyed Xenosaga so much that I have this view, but I think it makes perfect sense within the realm of science-fiction that a metaphysical entity from a higher realm would need some sort of avatar/body/ship to use as a proxy for interaction with the lower realm; a vessel to carry out its will, or an entire race of vessels. Angels and avatars. Xenosaga changed up the formula a bit by proposing that "God needs a starship" rather than a race, and Blue Planet combines both ideas in the Vishnans and Shivans. The Shivans are more material, with actual bodies building their ships, while the Vishnans are pure consciousnesses inhabiting the ships. You could say the Shivans are the lower, more material manifestations of metaphysic beings while the Vishnans are higher.

The Shivans are a collective. They are literally a single organism/being with many separate parts, like a jellyfish or ant colony. The totality of Shiva's collective consciousness could qualify for demi-god in size and willpower.

Shiva is the destroyer deity of the Freespace universe, planned for this role by Intelligent Design, and perhaps even birthed from the flux of Subspace itself. Shiva destroys failed races which have not overcome destructive tendencies to pave the way for future races, much like the God of the Old Testament destroying the world in a flood to give the righteous Noah a chance to reboot humanity. Likewise, Vishnu the Great Preserver and its parts (the Vishnans) destroys to preserve races which already exist.

Shiva and Vishnu are two aspects or faces of the same being in the trinity of Brahmanism, and so their roles are highly similar. Together they restore and uphold balance in all things. In fact, it could be said that it would have been more proper for the Shivans and Vishnans to be a single race, because they literally "destroy to preserve." The only real plot hole in the metaphysics of Blue Planet is that, before the Shivans began to destroy indiscriminately and forgot their sacred purpose (much like the assessor Satan in Christian theos), there was no real reason for a separate race of Vishnans to exist. The Shivans would have simultaneously been Vishnans in action by preserving budding races like Terrans from destruction at the hands of the Ancients.

I quite like having metaphysics in science fiction. After all, "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic," and any sufficiently advanced entity is indistinguishable from an angel or god. Xenosaga did wonders with Gnostic metaphysics and the new Battlestar Galactica had comparable success with its angels and creator deity that doesn't like to be called "God". I think Blue Planet is right at home among them as one of the better, more ambitious science-fiction tales to date.

Frankly, I think after the Matrix shook things up, any science fiction tale of large scale and hoping to raise the bar of ambitious scope is lacking without at least some metaphysical or mythological reference. The Blue Planet team should get HUEG props for being brave enough to continue the budding tradition.

[blowfish]

Just a technical point - you don't use Helios bombs in Slaying Ravana.

[SpardaSon21]

I thought you killed the Ravana with Cyclops warheads, and didn't get to use the Helios until Bearbaiting.

And in my eyes I always thought the FS universe had those references as just that, references.  The Ancients referred to the Shivans as preservers, simply because they thought the Shivans eliminated any race that started warmongering once it reached the stars, and that could be considered baseless speculation on the part of the Ancients, simply because they probably knew as much about the Shivans as the Terrans and Vasudans do.  And even if I accept the fact that FS2 is based on mysticism, that doesn't mean mysticism is an essential part of the storyline.  You can replace the Shivans with another unknown race hellbent on killing mankind, and the story of FS works almost as well.  My problem with BP is that it shoves it right in the player's face, making such acts an irreplaceable part of the storyline in a way never did.

GB, perhaps I misspoke when I talked about "all-powerful energy beings".  The Vishnans may not be all-powerful, but they do exist on a higher plane of existence.  They had very little knowledge about us Terran ants until Bei merged with the Sacred Keeper.  Bei himself says the Vishnans inhabit our plane of existence in the same way we would inhabit a room.

To sum up, FS1 and FS2 did have some mystic elements, but it always felt grounded in reality, as the circumstances of FS1 and FS2 felt plausible.  BP: AoA takes that plausibility and discards it by creating a universe where mystical, powerful energy beings exist and seek to protect mankind from the Cosmic Destroyers, touching on Humans Are Special territory.  I wouldn't mind the storyline at all if it were standalone, I simply don't think it is a good fit with an established universe that is a more material setting.

[manwiththemachinegun]

One of the reasons I call Blue Planet a good substitute to FS3 is that so much is explained and continued that began in the first two games.

Literally every explanation about the Vishnans and Shivans we learn in BP ties directly into ideas and concepts in the first two freespace games.

Bosch, Lt. Ash, and Alpha 1 from FS1 all had mystical musings on the Shivans and the order of the universe to different extents.

The concept of alternate universes was brought up by Petrarch at the end of FS2.

Hints that the GTVA was led by jerks was well apparent in FS2 as well. Perfectly content to let Bosch escape if his ETAK technology could pay off down the road.

Don't think Vorlon/Shadow. The Vishnans are doing their job just fine, *they're* not corrupt. The Shivans are pursuing their own goals at the expense of the galactic order of things.

[General Battuta]

 My problem with BP is that it shoves it right in the player's face, making such acts an irreplaceable part of the storyline in a way never did.

GB, perhaps I misspoke when I talked about "all-powerful energy beings".  The Vishnans may not be all-powerful, but they do exist on a higher plane of existence.  They had very little knowledge about us Terran ants until Bei merged with the Sacred Keeper.  Bei himself says the Vishnans inhabit our plane of existence in the same way we would inhabit a room.

To sum up, FS1 and FS2 did have some mystic elements, but it always felt grounded in reality, as the circumstances of FS1 and FS2 felt plausible.  BP: AoA takes that plausibility and discards it by creating a universe where mystical, powerful energy beings exist and seek to protect mankind from the Cosmic Destroyers, touching on Humans Are Special territory.  I wouldn't mind the storyline at all if it were standalone, I simply don't think it is a good fit with an established universe that is a more material setting.

Yeah, no. Again, you're assuming that just because something is a mystery, it's going to be explained my mysticism.

Stop confusing what you don't yet understand with things that can't be understood. It's perfectly possible to explain everything in Blue Planet in a strictly material way, as you should know if you've read the Project Nagari dossier on the website.

And yeah, manwiththemachinegun and Zex Marquise are very perceptive. A lot of the people who claim that BP introduced crazy new stuff to the FS canon miss the fact that everything in BP was either mentioned directly in FS1 or FS2, or mandated by :V: in their plan for FS3 (there had to be a 'bigger problem' the Shivans were a symptom of.)

And yet bear in mind that BP is not FS3. It's BP. It is not beholden to be 'FreeSpacey'. Criticizing it on those grounds is like criticizing Transcend for 'not being FreeSpacey'. It's silly.

BP is BP's take on the FSverse.

And for god's sake, SpardaSon21, would you please read what is posted. There are no mystical powerful energy beings. To call them 'energy beings' would be, as BP says, to utterly miss the point: and yet the point is not yet fully understood.

If you think the Vishnans are as simple as 'protect humans' you are not doing much thinking about them or their motives. If you think you understand them enough to explain them in such simple terms you're very silly. Furthermore the 'Humans Are Special' critique is exactly the opposite of what happens. Humans are explicitly not special in BP. What is special is the Terran-Vasudan alliance.

Never mind that you've completely ignored what I said: all the information we have on the Vishnans comes from the Vishnans themselves, via Sam.

Go hunting in AoA for some easter eggs. You might be surprised by what you find.

I'll say it twice though I shouldn't have had to say it at all: we read hard SF, stuff like Alastair Reynolds that makes FreeSpace look like a comedy. We are well aware of the 'hard' aspects of the FSverse. If anything, we're looking to make them a little harder.

[Klaustrophobia]

i agree that BP felt rather mystical.  sorry for calling it that after you saying that was missing the point.  i understand what you mean and agree, but i just can't think of a better word to describe it.  but i loved it for this.  we've got enough campaigns that are a string of "the shivans have returned, all batteries open fire" missions.  BP entered risky territory with the main character development, but pulled it off very well. 

i'll admit, on first playthrough when the story went for the "alternate universe" approach, i groaned, because that motif seems rather cliche, and is too often used as a cheap, quick and dirty "explanation" for weird plot elements in a poorly cohesive story.  BP didn't turn out like this, so  on believablility there.  the only part i had trouble with as far as believablility was the attack on earth in the original version.  i could see NO reason for this at all, and sat there in my fighter thinking "wtf, where did this come from?"  then DC added the extra info about command's motivations, VERY good improvement.

[NGTM-1R]

And yet bear in mind that BP is not FS3. It's BP. It is not beholden to be 'FreeSpacey'. Criticizing it on those grounds is like criticizing Transcend for 'not being FreeSpacey'. It's silly.

I should point out that by designating itself a continuation of the FreeSpace story, BP does immediately take on a requirement to be recognizeable, preferably immediately recognizeable, as FreeSpace.

Which, frankly, it is, so he's still quite wrong.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

[21:49]   <Fury`>   grah
[21:49]   <Fury`>   why those aren't reported in the forums
[21:50]   <Fury`>   it pisses me off when bugs are found in some random wiki entries

Fury was griping about this bug I came across when I played the DC on 3.6.12 RC1 INF:



Consult the comms list in that image. Apparently, you are not supposed to have command authority over the warships in the fleet.

Spoiler:

I thought it was a feature of being promoted to Captain!

[Qent]

The Balor may be statistically better than the Subach but in the Director's Cut I've gone back to using the Prometheus S (although my wingmen all sport the Balor =)

I just realized that according to the numbers, the Prometheus S almost totally eclipses the Balor. All the Balor has are ROF and a tiny bit more subsystem damage.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

That's perfectly normal. The Balor is meant to complement the Subach, not the Prometheus S.

[Qent]

It does okay there, but at least the Subach gets double the efficiency for its lack of punch. The Balor is slightly less efficient than the Prometheus.

[Dilmah G]

Andro:

Spoiler:

In the Navy, the Officer in Command of the Vessel (as opposed to the Rear Admiral or whoever onboard) is usually a Captain, and retains control of the ship, if I remember correctly. If Bei is a Captain, he wouldn't necessarily outrank the CO's of the ships in the Battle Group, thus it doesn't really make a lot of sense to have the entire Battle Group at Bei's unquestioned Command.

[The E]

What he said. Even given that you are Alpha 1, you are still just a fighter pilot. Ships do have a different chain of command in most cases.

[Dragon]

High ROF is usefull for dealing with Shivan fighters such as Dragons or Manticores, which are fast and difficult to hit.
GTVA usus PromS-Balor combo as a standard issue for fighters, just like PromR-Subach before.
Balor is usefull when you need ROF and low energy consumption, PromS if you need a heavy hitter.
As for capship commanding, what can you tell them to do?
It's ussualy possible to open up the menu for all ships in the fleet, but there's no valid command you can give them.
A fighter pilot can try to give a command to a warship, but he will most likely get a funny look from the captain and reprimende from his superior.

[General Battuta]

[21:49]   <Fury`>   grah
[21:49]   <Fury`>   why those aren't reported in the forums
[21:50]   <Fury`>   it pisses me off when bugs are found in some random wiki entries

Fury was griping about this bug I came across when I played the DC on 3.6.12 RC1 INF:

*screenshot*

Consult the comms list in that image. Apparently, you are not supposed to have command authority over the warships in the fleet.

Which mission? I thought I'd fixed all of those, darn it.