Author Topic: He is risen  (Read 18860 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline S-99

  • MC Hammer
  • 210
  • A one hit wonder, you still want to touch this.
Every pilot's goal is to rise up in the ranks and go beyond their purpose to a place of command on a very big ship. Like the colossus; to baseball bat everyone.

SMBFD

I won't use google for you.

An0n sucks my Jesus ring.

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Where are these large numbers of priests who don't realize this concept; were we even talking about priests in the first place?

Given that this entire discussion is based on me saying that the Church has had a troubled history with science, yes, we were.

And when you have a member of the Vatican claiming that there is a link between homosexuality and paedophilia and that studies prove it it's hard to see how you can claim it doesn't. Sure the press office then stamped on him once there was an uproar about it but it shows my point off pretty well.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Liberator

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 210
kara, I don't think it's that religion itself is bad or stupid, it's that the Catholic Church, the organization led by the Pope, has it's head up it's ass where it's representatives are concerned. 

I speak primarily about this whole "Paedo-Priests" business.  If they were interested at all about maintaining something resembling a positive reputation, they should defrock the "priest" in question and remove any legal protection that they might extend in the form of lawyers or money.  Instead they move them around and pretend it's not happening.  That would go a long way to restoring faith The Church in my opinion.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline Mongoose

  • Rikki-Tikki-Tavi
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
  • This brain for rent.
    • Steam
    • Something
Where are these large numbers of priests who don't realize this concept; were we even talking about priests in the first place?

Given that this entire discussion is based on me saying that the Church has had a troubled history with science, yes, we were.

And when you have a member of the Vatican claiming that there is a link between homosexuality and paedophilia and that studies prove it it's hard to see how you can claim it doesn't. Sure the press office then stamped on him once there was an uproar about it but it shows my point off pretty well.
...wait, wait, wait.  We started this whole thing off with you stating that many Catholics think that the Church espouses Young-Earth Creationism.  Okay.  Then you mentioned something about priests thinking the same thing, and the Church actively teaching Catholics the wrong information, which is where you started to lose me.  And then you jumped straight to making the whole conversation about priests, and added in an anecdote about a topic I wasn't even talking about.  Color me confused, because I feel like you're getting argumentative about an argument I wasn't making in the first place.  Did we skip a step somewhere?

I will not deny that individual Church officials have made some profoundly stupid, and sometimes outright harmful, science-related statements in the past, and I'm not about to defend them.  But the general attitude of the Church today toward scientific research is relatively benevolent, even if there are logistical difficulties in ensuring that every practicing Catholic out there understands this. That's really the only point I was trying to make, nothing more.

And Liberator...you do realize that your suggestions are exactly what's being practiced today, right?  The overlooking and moving-around was happening thirty or forty years ago, and it's this that the current controversy stems from.  Again, I'm not going to defend the priests engaged in such practices in the least: they took advantage of the trust placed in them in the most sickening way possible, and went against everything they should have stood for.  And while those who actively tried to overlook such practices may have felt like they were doing what was best for the Church at the time, all they were really doing was facilitating the perpetuation of that evil.  The current outcry is definitely justified.

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • FLAMES OF WAR
Looks to me like Kaj is smoking something. His deductions...don't follow.

"The sun rises from the east"
"East is china, china is evul."
Therefore, the sun is evul!"
 :lol:
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Trashman, if you can't follow the argument I suggest you butt out right now.

kara, I don't think it's that religion itself is bad or stupid, it's that the Catholic Church, the organization led by the Pope, has it's head up it's ass where it's representatives are concerned. 

Given that the Protestants have their heads even further up their arses when it comes to denial of science I'd point out that you've just completely smashed your glass house throwing all those stones.

The Catholic Church at least gets some grudging respect from me due to its position on science. Does it do enough, no. Does it do more than the various idiots in the other big Christian denominations, oh ****ing hell yes.

...wait, wait, wait.  We started this whole thing off with you stating that many Catholics think that the Church espouses Young-Earth Creationism.  Okay.  Then you mentioned something about priests thinking the same thing, and the Church actively teaching Catholics the wrong information, which is where you started to lose me.

I didn't say it teaches the wrong information. I said that it doesn't do enough to teach the right information. The Genesis story needs stronger reinforcement of the fact that it is considered to be symbolic NOT literal truth. Let me put it this way, if there are Catholics walking around thinking it is the literal truth how is that a good thing spiritually for them? They're not understanding the symbolism of the story if they think it is real.

Quote
And then you jumped straight to making the whole conversation about priests, and added in an anecdote about a topic I wasn't even talking about.  Color me confused, because I feel like you're getting argumentative about an argument I wasn't making in the first place.  Did we skip a step somewhere?

My argument is that the Catholic Church or representatives of it have on numerous occasions ignored science to present their own skewed view of things. I simply picked YEC as an example. There are several others.

Quote
I will not deny that individual Church officials have made some profoundly stupid, and sometimes outright harmful, science-related statements in the past, and I'm not about to defend them.  But the general attitude of the Church today toward scientific research is relatively benevolent, even if there are logistical difficulties in ensuring that every practicing Catholic out there understands this. That's really the only point I was trying to make, nothing more.

And how is that different from my original point that it has had a troubled relationship with science?

« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 03:24:21 am by karajorma »
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Liberator

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 210
I'm dubious about the "Young Earth" myself and the science is all but impossible to argue with, however the creation story is also hard to discount because there's no time scale given between the end of the creation recounting and the removal from paradise.  Since Adam and Eve were supposed to be perfect they could've lived in Eden for a week after the day God rested or a million years, it's not specified all that clearly.  The time keeping gets clearer afterward with The Flood taking place approximately 900 to 1000 years after the removal from Eden, IIRC(which I might not be).
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Actually it's pretty obvious that there were never only two humans alive let alone that they were the first two ever. A million years of mutation could not account for the diversity that exists within the human race.

This is yet another example of something the Roman Catholic Church says which is at odds with the science.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Thaeris

  • Can take his lumps
  • 211
  • Away in Limbo
Oh, meh...

Was it intended to be literal or figurative? What does it matter?

The point is the creation story has a purpose in teaching values besides those of literal science - if one actually contemplates and analyzes the creation story for what it is, there shouldn't be a conflict.

The problem moreover is people not being able to contemplate other possible doctrines than their own. "Once you stop asking questions, you've lost the game."
"trolls are clearly social rejects and therefore should be isolated from society, or perhaps impaled."

-Nuke



"Look on the bright side, how many release dates have been given for Doomsday, and it still isn't out yet.

It's the Duke Nukem Forever of prophecies..."


"Jesus saves.

Everyone else takes normal damage.
"

-Flipside

"pirating software is a lesser evil than stealing but its still evil. but since i pride myself for being evil, almost anything is fair game."


"i never understood why women get the creeps so ****ing easily. i mean most serial killers act perfectly normal, until they kill you."


-Nuke

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
If you try to claim that the story of Adam and Eve is literally true you contradict science. I have no real problem (in terms of this debate at least) with them claiming it is symbolic.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Solatar

  • 211
It's either two original humans or no incest, pick one.  :P

Sorry, needed to lighten the mood just a tad.

 

Offline Bob-san

  • Wishes he was cool
  • 210
  • It's 5 minutes to midnight.
Those that claim that the two creation stories are more than symbolic have their heads so deeply up their ass that they're staring out their mouth. The official stance of the Catholic Church is often called "peer review". The Catholic Church has long since supported the major scientific ideas of the time. If you want to start ragging on the Church not accepting or advancing science, please remember to send more than a weird theory with questionable proof and often laughable credentials. Aristotle was a brilliant man who lived 2400 years ago. For his time and for thousands of years past, he was the de facto voice of science. The problem with that? He wasn't always right. That's where scientific method comes in; disprove Aristotle and try to correct his thoughts. People don't like major changes in ideas, but people like Galileo coming out with a radical theory and effectively insulting your peers is not a good way to perform science (though it is a fast way to be put under house arrest, at least in those times). His first book was ragging on the Pope at the time and the discussion where he presented his evidence was a personal attack on anyone who didn't agree with him. It'd take the real proof and real evidence and real way to prove or disprove Galileo before he was accepted. Presented clearly and with as much supporting evidence (and refuting evidence, and a way to disprove your idea, is effectively a challenge) is the right way to do it. Brilliant or not, that's science. And that's what the Church was doing, regardless of the brush it's been painted with hundreds of years after the fact.
NGTM-1R: Currently considering spending the rest of the day in bed cuddling.
GTSVA: With who...?
Nuke: chewbacca?
Bob-san: The Rancor.

 

Offline Mongoose

  • Rikki-Tikki-Tavi
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
  • This brain for rent.
    • Steam
    • Something
...wait, wait, wait.  We started this whole thing off with you stating that many Catholics think that the Church espouses Young-Earth Creationism.  Okay.  Then you mentioned something about priests thinking the same thing, and the Church actively teaching Catholics the wrong information, which is where you started to lose me.

I didn't say it teaches the wrong information. I said that it doesn't do enough to teach the right information. The Genesis story needs stronger reinforcement of the fact that it is considered to be symbolic NOT literal truth. Let me put it this way, if there are Catholics walking around thinking it is the literal truth how is that a good thing spiritually for them? They're not understanding the symbolism of the story if they think it is real.
I'll agree with you that Catholics should understand that the two creation stories in Genesis fall into mythos/allegory instead of literal fact, but as I mentioned before, it's hard to determine what the appropriate venue would be.  Homilies during Sunday Mass tend to focus on the message of that week's Scripture readings, so even if you happened to focus the homily on that during a week where the Old Testament reading was from Genesis, you'd only be catching those people who happened to attend Mass that week.  Something like a letter from a bishop would, again, probably only reach those in attendance.  People who happened to attend Catholic school, and specifically Catholic high school, are really the only group whom I'd assume is most like to have been taught the concept in no uncertain terms.

Quote
Quote
I will not deny that individual Church officials have made some profoundly stupid, and sometimes outright harmful, science-related statements in the past, and I'm not about to defend them.  But the general attitude of the Church today toward scientific research is relatively benevolent, even if there are logistical difficulties in ensuring that every practicing Catholic out there understands this. That's really the only point I was trying to make, nothing more.

And how is that different from my original point that it has had a troubled relationship with science?
I think there's a substantial difference in stating, "Several Church officials have made troubling statements about science," and instead saying, "The Church as a whole has a troubled relationship with science."  That's where your point was getting lost on me.

Actually it's pretty obvious that there were never only two humans alive let alone that they were the first two ever. A million years of mutation could not account for the diversity that exists within the human race.

This is yet another example of something the Roman Catholic Church says which is at odds with the science.
...didn't you already acknowledge that the Church views the Genesis creation stories in a more abstract sense?  So where's the "at odds" there?

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
The Church views evolution as being scientific fact. They haven't made any definitive comment at all on whether Adam and Eve were real since Pope Pious said that they definitely were.

Many priests still teach Adam and Eve as somehow being literally true. As an example from a quick googling I found this. I'm in a hurry so I'll address the rest of your points in a bit.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Davros

  • 29
Those that claim that the two creation stories are more than symbolic

There are 2 creation stories ?

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Yep. Genesis provides two different versions.

 

Offline S-99

  • MC Hammer
  • 210
  • A one hit wonder, you still want to touch this.
I don't see why religion and science need to be linked together. The bible tells you how to go to heaven and has a good deal of science in it, but doesn't tell you how the universe works.

We live in an age of furthering enlightenment. Discovering things and figuring out how they actually work. There's much to be conflicting with the old beliefs in religion especially christianity. But, why link science and religion together? I don't see much of a point.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 07:48:55 pm by S-99 »
Every pilot's goal is to rise up in the ranks and go beyond their purpose to a place of command on a very big ship. Like the colossus; to baseball bat everyone.

SMBFD

I won't use google for you.

An0n sucks my Jesus ring.

 

Offline Liberator

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 210
To be fair, I had to look this up myself.  IMO, it's stretching it a bit to say it's two creation stories.  It reads a bit more like "OK, God made the world" and "To be more specific, this is how God made Man and created woman from the man."

Genesis 1 is the account of God creating the world with all it's wildly varying forms of life, ending with the original commandment, "Be fertile and increase, fill the earth and master it; and rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, and all the living things that creep on earth." and Genesis 2 deals directly with the creation of man specifically, detailing the hows, whys and wherefores.

I don't see why religion and science need to be linked together. The bible tells you how to go to heaven and has a good deal of science in it, but doesn't tell you how the universe works.

The vast majority of the population can't wrap they're noggin's around the idea that man was created(whenever he was created) with capability and desire to know, discover and master the universe around him.  To a great many people, science is mankind attempting to wrest God's power from Him and use it to do things that He never intended.  It's an old way of thinking that, while annoying in some circumstances, can be useful to prevent us from blowing ourselves away with some kind of killer bomb, virus or some other form of science run amok that I can't think of atm.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
I'll agree with you that Catholics should understand that the two creation stories in Genesis fall into mythos/allegory instead of literal fact, but as I mentioned before, it's hard to determine what the appropriate venue would be.

I don't think that is the problem. I think the problem is that the many Catholics truly believe that the Church has no position on the scientific view and that it is up to the individual person to choose whether it is literally true or not. A stronger emphasis on the fact that the creation myth is a parable just like the ones Jesus told and that it isn't literally true could be dropped into sermons pretty easily.

I'm not saying that the priest has to teach the science. Simply that he has to make clear that Genesis is a simplification.

Quote
People who happened to attend Catholic school, and specifically Catholic high school, are really the only group whom I'd assume is most like to have been taught the concept in no uncertain terms.

Have they? I was under the impression that the Catholic Church leaves it up to the individual to decide. You do have plenty of Catholics who are firm YEC believers. Are you saying that the Catholic Church considers them to be wrong?

There is a huge difference between teaching evolution in science classes in school and teaching its place in the creation myth during religious instruction. Which one is being done?

Quote
I will not deny that individual Church officials have made some profoundly stupid, and sometimes outright harmful, science-related statements in the past, and I'm not about to defend them.  But the general attitude of the Church today toward scientific research is relatively benevolent, even if there are logistical difficulties in ensuring that every practicing Catholic out there understands this. That's really the only point I was trying to make, nothing more.

Similarly I will agree that out of the major branches of Christianity the Catholic Church is undoubtedly the least hostile towards science. I'll agree that they are almost completely neutral towards it by and large (unlike others who are downright hostile). But I will point out that while it leaves it up to people to decide whether to take the bible literally or not, it can hardly be said to have embraced science.

Quote
I think there's a substantial difference in stating, "Several Church officials have made troubling statements about science," and instead saying, "The Church as a whole has a troubled relationship with science."  That's where your point was getting lost on me.

As I pointed out above the Catholic Church is mostly neutral towards science. Wouldn't you say that any relationship where the two parties were largely ambivalent with occasional spats was a troubled one? :D
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

  

Offline Mongoose

  • Rikki-Tikki-Tavi
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
  • This brain for rent.
    • Steam
    • Something
I'll agree with you that Catholics should understand that the two creation stories in Genesis fall into mythos/allegory instead of literal fact, but as I mentioned before, it's hard to determine what the appropriate venue would be.

I don't think that is the problem. I think the problem is that the many Catholics truly believe that the Church has no position on the scientific view and that it is up to the individual person to choose whether it is literally true or not. A stronger emphasis on the fact that the creation myth is a parable just like the ones Jesus told and that it isn't literally true could be dropped into sermons pretty easily.

I'm not saying that the priest has to teach the science. Simply that he has to make clear that Genesis is a simplification.
That probably would be the best way to do it, but even then, the impact would be somewhat limited.  That passage from Genesis would probably come up only once a year in the normal cycle of readings, at least for Sunday Mass; in fact, I'm not sure if it's read outside of the Easter Vigil service.  A priest could choose to focus his homily for that week on that particular aspect, but it wouldn't have a place on a weekly basis.  It would definitely be better than nothing, though.

Quote
Quote
People who happened to attend Catholic school, and specifically Catholic high school, are really the only group whom I'd assume is most like to have been taught the concept in no uncertain terms.

Have they? I was under the impression that the Catholic Church leaves it up to the individual to decide. You do have plenty of Catholics who are firm YEC believers. Are you saying that the Catholic Church considers them to be wrong?

There is a huge difference between teaching evolution in science classes in school and teaching its place in the creation myth during religious instruction. Which one is being done?
I'm honestly not sure how the Church specifically views Catholics who believe in YEC in terms of being "right" or "wrong."  As you've said, the Church's general position on evolutionary theory is one of having no problems with it as an explanation for the Earth's natural processes.  I don't know that they would ever actively condemn YEC proponents as acting against Church teaching, though, as it wouldn't necessarily be within the purview of faith.

As for the school question, at least in the high school I attended, we were required to have four years' worth of theology class.  I'm fairly certain that, in the year we covered the Old Testament, we studied the creation story in the context of allegory or myth, emphasizing that it wasn't meant as a literal scientific account.  Coupled with the normal study of evolutionary theory in biology class, I think it paints a unified picture of evolution as being the factual explanation.  But as I said, this would only really apply to people who had attended Catholic high school.

Quote
Quote
I will not deny that individual Church officials have made some profoundly stupid, and sometimes outright harmful, science-related statements in the past, and I'm not about to defend them.  But the general attitude of the Church today toward scientific research is relatively benevolent, even if there are logistical difficulties in ensuring that every practicing Catholic out there understands this. That's really the only point I was trying to make, nothing more.

Similarly I will agree that out of the major branches of Christianity the Catholic Church is undoubtedly the least hostile towards science. I'll agree that they are almost completely neutral towards it by and large (unlike others who are downright hostile). But I will point out that while it leaves it up to people to decide whether to take the bible literally or not, it can hardly be said to have embraced science.
I'm not really sure how much active "embracing" any particular religious faith can truly accomplish, though.  In the broadest sense, science and religion exist to answer different questions, or at least different aspects of the same questions.  I don't think any particular denomination of Christianity could, or even should, become something like an active cheerleader for science as a whole, as it wouldn't fit into the role that religion plays in people's lives.  Stating something like, "Scientific research is a way to understand the universe that God created," and leaving it at that, is probably in the best interest of all concerned, as it acknowledges the importance of science without intruding on it.

Quote
Quote
I think there's a substantial difference in stating, "Several Church officials have made troubling statements about science," and instead saying, "The Church as a whole has a troubled relationship with science."  That's where your point was getting lost on me.

As I pointed out above the Catholic Church is mostly neutral towards science. Wouldn't you say that any relationship where the two parties were largely ambivalent with occasional spats was a troubled one? :D
Only if you're trying to share the same bed. :p