[headdie]

Well, so you're saying you like them just how they are now?
Thing is, you keep emphasizing that a few beam turrets on the carrier will let it fight. But it will NOT save its sorry butt. If the carrier really gets ambushed, with or without beams, it is going DOWN. There is no way a hybrid ship can stand up to heavily armored hard hitting destroyers.

However, what was the carrier doing alone? What about its escort?

Point is, carrier warps out at the slightest sign of trouble. MEANWHILE support fleet warps with carrier. Enemy will have to wait for warp drive to recharge, giving you time to recall the destroyer fleet.
And if the enemy sends ANOTHER fleet to wipe out carrier, the carrier's support will be able to defend until the destroyer group can arrive. And it can scramble fighters. Never underestimate a couple wings of bombers going for your anti capital beams.

Point is, we need some specialized destroyers. Imagine having a destroyer with 2x pwnage power.

Yes, having anti cap weapons on carriers is nice. However, you can't have everything. So which would you prefer. 2 beam cannons or a dozen extra wings.
Thing is, you will likely not have a chance to fire the anti cap weapons. You should be running. Because thing is, a carrier will still not survive.

And the carrier isn't the main point actually. Its the destroyers. We want the destroyers to hit hard, and there is no reason why the fighters can't be based elsewhere. Move the 2 beams from carrier to destroyer, move the hangars from destroyer to carrier. There is a reason why modern aircraft carriers are defended only by a few flaks and we use another ship for heavy artillery.

I mean, you gotta admit there is SOME merit in this plan...

i think there are issues in this debate with how the battlefield works, carriers became the ruler of all today because its strike fighters can hit and dissable a conventional warship's armament before said warship can bring the carrier within range of its own weapons.

in freespace we have a battlefield whereby warships can jump within immediate weapons range of a located target, so even if the carrier jumps as soon as a hostile warship arrives reaction times mean that the hostile warship(s) will get a few shots off before the carrier jumps and subspace tracking means that the hostile ships will be able on top of the carrier quickly, also by placing a few fighters and bombers/cruisers at probabal rallying points will mean you can keep the pressure on the fleeing carrier, forcing it to keep moving and presumably denying it the opportunit to use its primary defence, its fighter wing.  destroyers as we see them are a neccesety for the core of the capital fleet as they can hold their own long enough to deploy bombers to wack any "ship killer" of destroyer scale which has no fighter wing to protect it and even in FS2 with aaa beams capships of all sizes are vulnerable to bombers

[IronForge]

Agreed. But for the plan of hardened destroyers to work, there must be bigger carriers. We'd all love carriers that hit hard, but I prefer destroyers that hit hard to carriers that hit hard. It woudn't  be possible to make destroyers hit harder and take more damage if it had the same fighter bay. So I'm saying the destroyer enters combat with fighters which have been launched from a carrier.

[Scourge of Ages]

The carrier doesn't have to hit hard, it just has to be able to scrape a crusier out of the way or make a corvette think twice about attacking it. Why? In case it's separated from it's fighter wings or escort due to any of them getting killed or trying to cover it's initial retreat, or deployed in another engagement. And what if you need every ship and every beam available to crack a particularly tough fleet or target? If you're brining a carrier, you'll want it to be able to contribute.
Without heavy weapons, a carrier is easy prey. It has a much better chance of survival by being a decent challenge.

[IronForge]

We are already giving it more blob guns. It can fight a cruiser. Corvette, thats what bombers are for. And you failed to mention the 2 corvettes and 2 cruisers guarding it and the other carriers, transports etc. I'm saying the carrier is going to be a supply center for the fleet. A mobile base. The space it sits in should be fortified.
However, I agree some anti cap weapons will be a good idea, some INSTANT anti cap weapons. Bombers take time to reach, blobs don't do much. Maybe throw in a small beam won't hurt. However it should not have its own power generators and all, it should draw power from other systems to fire. Firing it is a last resort. It will be used to hit one enemy beam cannon, thereby reducing the incoming DPS while it scrambles fighters. That is if you are really so short on corvettes that you actually have to scramble the last corvette guarding it.

My argument isn't just about modifying existing ships to fit more specific roles, but also that GTVA should use those modified ships well. Something they arn't known for.

[TrashMan]

You cannot hide in space.

In reality no. In Freespace universe? Apparently, you can. We seen ships searching for eachother in canon and we've seen scout wings launched to search areas.

***

But lets think about this for a second.
If the enemy can detect you, you can detect him.
If his capships warp in, your carriers warp out. Jump-drive re-charge works both ways, so they can't follow you immediately.

Alternatively, if you have a secured node, you can jump in with a carrier, launch all fighter and wait near the node while the fighters jump around and harass the enemy. In case of trouble you can always retreat the carrier.

Aditionally, specialized battleships would be better blockade breakers. More firepower, more armor. Beams deal damage faster than bombs and beams can't be intercepted.


Specialized ships can work in FS. But like any sensible military, you'd have both specilized and unspecialized ones. Best too for the job/situation.

[jr2]

Instead of making a pure carrier, how about building a new class of ship that actually functions as both a true, fearsome carrier and heavy destroyer, all in one?

Make a bigger Hecate.. move all its self-sustaining / weapons systems outward as the hull gets wider and higher (maybe add some length too for added punch) and have a few sets of massive fighter / bomer bays inside.  Optimize these bays for fast deployment of large numbers of craft in a short amount of time.

The exterior should have plenty of power (maybe two or three reactors, or just one big one with a highly efficient power grid) and the weapons should be pinpoint accurate (give it lots of sensors).

There should always be at least two wings of some type of patrol craft on duty with this ship 24/7; and more if the threat level is recognized to be higher.  Smack a few escort ships with that and see who dares to mess with it.

Oh, and an AWACS as part of the fleet that accompanies it would make a nice complement to the pinpoint weapons.  That and have the patrol craft carry at least one bank of TAGs each. - This would help give more time until the rapid deployment of the internal fighters / bombers could turn the tide of any ambush.

Have one of these bad boys for every flagship, and you should be fine.  Yeah its expensive.  But still, at least then we'd have to come up with something equally awesome or ingenious to counter it, and that would be highly interesting. 

[General Battuta]

I mean, you gotta admit there is SOME merit in this plan...

Well, considering every major post-Capella mod has done this already, clearly there must be.

Just not to the stupid extent you're arguing for.

Have you played Inferno or Blue Planet?

[BlueFlames]

Thing is, you keep emphasizing that a few beam turrets on the carrier will let it fight. But it will NOT save its sorry butt. If the carrier really gets ambushed, with or without beams, it is going DOWN. There is no way a hybrid ship can stand up to heavily armored hard hitting destroyers.

True, if a beam-heavy destroyer jumps in on a hybrid carrier-battleship, without the support of its air group or escort, it won't put up much of a fight.  However, the presence of anti-warship beams on the hybrid ship forces the enemy to deploy a destroyer, instead of something smaller, cheaper, and more readily available.  If your eggshell carrier gets separated from its escort, it's going to have a hard time fending off a cruiser with its point defenses, and it's just meat to a corvette.

Specialization has its merits, but you can only take it so far.  Once your enemy identifies the weakness of your vessel, they will adopt tactics to exploit that weakness.  If you over-specialize, your weakness becomes easier to exploit.  A Hecate is vulnerable to other large warships, in the absence of escorting vessels.  Your eggshell would be vulnerable to any warship without its escort and could potentially be kept so far from the battlefield by the mere threat of counterattack as to render it insignificant.  The Hecate might not be able to wade into the thick of battle, but if pressed, it can hang with another warship long enough to deploy additional wings and regain the advantage.  Take away the beams and armor, and it has to run, leaving any wings already deployed to fend for themselves.

Before you parrot your own line about a heavy escort solving everything, bear a couple things in mind:
1)  Reliance on a heavy escort is a weakness that can be easily exploited.  Lure the escort off in one direction, while launching the main attack from another.
2)  A heavy escort is not an impenetrable shield.  One can shoot around an escort ship, and it doesn't have to stand against the escort's fire very long, if you've stripped the armor off your carrier.
3)  In the FreeSpace universe, situations often arise where it is impossible to deploy heavy escort for a ship that needs it.

[IronForge]

Blue planet was AWESOME!!!
However I feel their ships weren't specialized enough.

The escort doesn't leave the field till carrier leaves. Something many people learnt the hard way in EvE. Tempting to send it after an opportunistic target, but what if its a trap?

Also, it is not egg shell thin now, just that it doesn't have beams, which take up too much space. But one or two small beams should be ok. Not the huge destroyer type big cannon of doom types though. Plus, remember, it can scramble fighters and bombers, and there should be fighters and bombers on escort.

Yes, most mods, even retail (the hecate) has done this, but they arn't specialized enough if you're deliberately sending them into a capital ship fragfest. And in blue planet, it was out of necessity, I understand that. However at the end it was said it was the GTVA's most powerful fleet. Obviously the first to charge into  the portal. They arn't specialized carriers...

[The E]

Ahem. The Titan class ships (Like the Temeraire) are specialized carriers in BP. The Raynor class vessels (like the Orestes) are specialized Destroyers. Yet each of them can perform satisfactory in the other ones' role.
In that way, they mirror the Hecate/Orion pair of the Second Incursion, but the Titan is a much better ship killer than the Hecate, while the Raynor is a much better Carrier than the Orion.

This division of labour increases the tactical flexibility of the whole fleet, since both Destroyers are capable of filling the tactical role the other one specializes in. Strategically, it has the advantage of redundancy, if one Destroyer would be taken out, the other one does not suddenly develop a massive vulnerability against a specific form of attack.

Question would be, would your proposed Carrier be able to survive Forced Entry, and the operations leading up to it? Remember, the Temeraire was fighting a holding action while your fighter wing secured the Knossos, with her escorts being sent off one by one to make their way through the portal. Had she been a specialized Carrier, that tactic would not have worked.

However at the end it was said it was the GTVA's most powerful fleet. Obviously the first to charge into  the portal. They arn't specialized carriers...

The 14th Battlegroup is the strongest formation in the GTVA because its tactical doctrine and ship designs have been thought out very carefully. Their relative lack of specialization is what makes them powerful.

[el_magnifico]

The escort doesn't leave the field till carrier leaves. Something many people learnt the hard way in EvE.

This is not EVE. I don't know how the EVE universe works*, but this is FreeSpace. We have seen canon evidence that in practice in FS, Carriers eventually go around unescorted (Proving grounds, Argonautica), and battlelines and formations are a rare sight (every mission except Their finest hour and Clash of the Titans II).
So yes, carriers are supposed to be able to defend themselves against anything smaller than them.

Also, it is not egg shell thin now, just that it doesn't have beams, which take up too much space. But one or two small beams should be ok.

That's right here.

Look, you don't like how command manages his assets? Then you're right. Command are just a bunch of idiots too high in the chain of command. I believe it's quite probable that they haven't been in an actual battle since the Great War. And I completely agree Hecates should be renamed as Carriers and be deployed with a considerable escort if possible.
So, why don't we just debate about how command deploys their destroyers and carriers instead of trying to convince us command should scrap everything and build a new, hyperspecialized fleet.
Because I'm beginning to suspect you're secretly working for Triton Dynamics or something like that.

Yes, most mods, even retail (the hecate) has done this, but they arn't specialized enough if you're deliberately sending them into a capital ship fragfest.

Name at least a single canon destroyer that was engaged by a Hecate.
In fact, I just finished replaying the main campaign, and the only capital ships a Hecate ever fought against as far as I know were Moloch corvettes, and only because the corvettes engaged the Hecate, which was retreating.


*: Hell! I don't even know what EVE is and I'm too lazy to google it.

[IronBeer]

Name at least a single canon destroyer that was engaged by a Hecate.

Well, I guess the Phonecia technically engaged the first Sathanas, but we all know how well that went...

[el_magnifico]

Name at least a single canon destroyer that was engaged by a Hecate.

Well, I guess the Phonecia technically engaged the first Sathanas, but we all know how well that went...

False because:

A) They didn't engaged the Sathanas, they got the hell out of there as fast as they could, panicking, screaming, and completely ruining their underwear in the process.

B) Under those circumstances, it was the best option. Since Command decided to put something, anything in the path of the Sathanas in order to slow them down, and the only thing of sufficient size they had at hand was an unscratched Hecate destroyer, the decision actually made a lot of sense. An Orion, and I guess even a Raynor or the Colossus, would have suffered exactly the same fate. So having an specialized Carrier or Destroyer wouldn't have mattered in this case.

However, there is some truth in your post. One has to wonder why did command even thought about putting something as valuable as a Carrier in the path of that monster. But we've both already agreed that when it comes to assets management, command has an IQ comparable to that of a confused cockroach.

[Paladin327]

Name at least a single canon destroyer that was engaged by a Hecate.

there were plans for the Aquatane to be part of a battlegroup to to engage the sathanas, but it got outmeneuvered. ok, it's not 1 on 1, nd it didnt actually happen, but still

also, the carriers heavy escort is not perfect. the enemy can target an escort ship, and destroy it, denying of that escort. a couple more operations targeting the escort will strip it of its defencive line. since the escort can not be replaced instantly, after a while, only a couple corvettes, even moloch class, could probably take out this carrier which has next to no defence.

We are already giving it more blob guns. It can fight a cruiser. Corvette, thats what bombers are for. And you failed to mention the 2 corvettes and 2 cruisers guarding it and the other carriers, transports etc. I'm saying the carrier is going to be a supply center for the fleet. A mobile base. The space it sits in should be fortified.
However, I agree some anti cap weapons will be a good idea, some INSTANT anti cap weapons. Bombers take time to reach, blobs don't do much. Maybe throw in a small beam won't hurt. However it should not have its own power generators and all, it should draw power from other systems to fire. Firing it is a last resort. It will be used to hit one enemy beam cannon, thereby reducing the incoming DPS while it scrambles fighters. That is if you are really so short on corvettes that you actually have to scramble the last corvette guarding it.

so you're proposing putting a ship that has no busniness anywhere within 2 jumps of the front line in the middle of the action?

[TrashMan]

Instead of making a pure carrier, how about building a new class of ship that actually functions as both a true, fearsome carrier and heavy destroyer, all in one?

Because everything comes at a cost. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Let's say you make a  3km long super-hybrid. Someone else makes a 3km long pure carrier, that carries twice as much fighters/bombers as your ships. Or maby a dedicated warship that has more guns.

It's really simple - a ship has a limited amount of volume available. You divide that volume to put stuff in. The more different things you put, the less room for other things.

Fighterbays require lots of room to put all the fighters, to keep fuel, ammo and pare parts, to house the flight crew, and this requires some other rooms to be bigger (like the mess hall, the kitchen).
Weaponry requires room for the large turrets themselves, the heat sinks, and more power generators.

[TrashMan]

also, the carriers heavy escort is not perfect. the enemy can target an escort ship, and destroy it, denying of that escort. a couple more operations targeting the escort will strip it of its defencive line. since the escort can not be replaced instantly, after a while, only a couple corvettes, even moloch class, could probably take out this carrier which has next to no defence.

A destroyers fighter cover can be thin down in a couple of operation. They can do the same to turrets. "We can weaken it after several attacks" is not exactly and argument, as it works agaist any and every ship or fleet.

Also, ships can...ya know...retreat...move..launch a coutnerstrike.

[Gamma_Draconis]

Instead of making a pure carrier, how about building a new class of ship that actually functions as both a true, fearsome carrier and heavy destroyer, all in one?

The Colossus?

[sigtau]

The Colossus?

You have won 1 internet.

[QuantumDelta]

Cept the colosuss was fs2s vasuda prime

[Spoon]

Cept the colosuss was fs2s vasuda prime

What?