[NGTM-1R]

I have no idea why you guys think the harpoon is so great or so 'signature dogfight', when compared to tempests it's almost useless.

Fire and forget, doublefire kills or at least finishes instantly. Again, you don't play singleplayer enough, you're not really qualified to commentate on the FS universe.

[General Battuta]

I have no idea why you guys think the harpoon is so great or so 'signature dogfight', when compared to tempests it's almost useless.

Fire and forget, doublefire kills or at least finishes instantly. Again, you don't play singleplayer enough, you're not really qualified to commentate on the FS universe.

Ooh, jealousy is such an ugly emotion!  

I've worked with him as a tester for the past few months and nobody I know has a better grasp of the way the single player works. I'd wager he's played more single player than almost anyone here, and then he's got multi experience on top of that.

He just posted a couple good playthroughs for FSPort and ST:R, too. Good stuff.

Were there to be some sort of system of actual qualifications to commentate on the FS Universe, I imagine QuantumDelta would be the gold standard.

[Scotty]

Then again, QD is to a normal player what a Top Gun instructor is to a Cadet at the academy.  He's good enough to use Tempests like nobody's business.  Most people aren't.  They use Harpoons, which are very good at what they're supposed to do.

[NGTM-1R]

Ooh, jealousy is such an ugly emotion!  

I'm going to assume you're kidding, as the alternative is quite frankly something I'm not willing to contemplate.

I've worked with him as a tester for the past few months and nobody I know has a better grasp of the way the single player works. I'd wager he's played more single player than almost anyone here, and then he's got multi experience on top of that.

Yes, which is why he dismisses things in the face of the opinion of everyone else. He's a solitary genius! Inspired!

Not likely.

QuantumDelta is colored by his belief in the multi, which is empathetically not what has kept this game alive or the reason I or you are here. When he does play single, he plays it on difficulties that render his opinon extremely suspect. Much as you choose to bleat about Fury's AI in other threads and Insane, this is pointless. This isn't Falcon and it wasn't designed for that level of difficulty and then they worked down so it would be playable for everyone else. If you want to make an argument about the way they actually built this game, you'd be far better off arguing that retail Medium is "reality" than anything else.

And on that setting, Harpoons are typically more useful then Tempests.

He just posted a couple good playthroughs for FSPort and ST:R, too. Good stuff.

Were there to be some sort of system of actual qualifications to commentate on the FS Universe, I imagine QuantumDelta would be the gold standard.

See above.

[General Battuta]

Ooh, jealousy is such an ugly emotion!  

I'm going to assume you're kidding, as the alternative is quite frankly something I'm not willing to contemplate.

You do sound jealous!

I titter.

I know you guys have had your disagreements in the past, and I think the fact that QD has such overwhelming authority presents a challenge to you.

We've already started posturing and preening about who plays REAL FREESPACE. Let's not descend into run-of-the-mill dickwaving.

Much as you choose to bleat about Fury's AI in other threads and Insane, this is pointless. This isn't Falcon and it wasn't designed for that level of difficulty

wut

Retail Insane is a piece of cake. Fury AI works on all difficulty levels, across the board. It makes things livelier as much as it makes them harder.

Are you aware that on difficulties below insane, the player gets a magical damage buffer and the number of attackers is actually hard-capped?

If you want to make an argument about the way they actually built this game, you'd be far better off arguing that retail Medium is "reality" than anything else.

So in reality, only a few fighters and turrets can shoot at the player, and s/he magically takes 60% of the damage that everything else does?

Whoa!

And on that setting, Harpoons are typically more useful then Tempests.

Tempests are still better on medium. Their DPS is crazy!

What I'm getting here is a really funky displacement mechanism to deal with the fact that you're not amazing at the game. Which is hardly something you should worry about - play for fun.

But I suggest trying out Insane. You'll probably surprise yourself. And until you've played Insane, you'll be working off bad data.

It's really not that bad.

[Fury]

@ NGTM-1R

[NGTM-1R]

Retail Insane is a piece of cake. Fury AI works on all difficulty levels, across the board. It makes things livelier as much as it makes them harder.

This is irrevelant as it is neither the way would have designed the game to be played, nor the way the majority of players would have/do played/play it.

Are you aware that on difficulties below insane, the player gets a magical damage buffer and the number of attackers is actually hard-capped?

This is irrevelant as it is neither the way would have designed the game to be played, nor the way the majority of players would have/do played/play it.

Or do you mean that they MEANT for all those extra missiles besides Tempests and maybe Rockeyes to almost never be used? That they'd drop in a whole sequence of a fighter several missions long and it'd be completely useless? That is basically composed of idiots who put in a bunch of hard work knowing it would all be for nothing in the end? You're really going to bite the hand that gave us this game that way?

So in reality, only a few fighters and turrets can shoot at the player, and s/he magically takes 60% of the damage that everything else does?

Why not? It's a game and we're talking about what constitutes reality in the game. Your desire for absolute realism is already irrelevent considering we have subspace travel, stealth fighters in space, conventional weapons with kiloton and megaton yields that are smaller than a human body, and everything takes place at ludicriously low speeds. You want reality, go play I-War or something. Your arbitrary skepticism does you no credit here.

Tempests are still better on medium. Their DPS is crazy!

And as anyone who exists outside an MMO can tell you, DPS isn't everything. Tactical factors typically dominate in a direct confrontation. It's great that your own are different from everyone else's, but you're failing your statistics classes and common sense by assuming you constitute any kind of norm.

But I suggest trying out Insane. You'll probably surprise yourself. And until you've played Insane, you'll be working off bad data.

Arbitrary decision. Prove this is true in light of the fact most players of this game would never touch insane and would have known this.

For that matter, you have no idea what level I typically play the game on, or how good at it I am. You know what level I test it on, because I've told you, but honestly, you're just talking out of your ass accusing me of anything related to skill or jealousy of.

[General Battuta]

*post about Tempests vs. Harpoons*

My care factor for anything in this post is 0 < care < .000001. If you think Harpoons are better than Tempests, fine by me - whatever works for the player. I could not give less of a **** about the whole issue, nor about 'realism'.

I'm just amused by the whole QD/NGTM-1R interaction. You have your strong opinions, QD comes along with his wads of authority, and suddenly the stuff I read about in papers for lab meetings has Sprung to Life! The first time you two got in an argument it was like a flowchart from a textbook.

Individual derives self-worth from trait, another individual threatens trait, individual #1 attempts to marginalize the threat of individual #2 by derogating the experiences that give #2 authority. I'm sure he's as guilty of it as you, but we've got these lovely posts of yours to dissect right here.  

People who talk about games and their players discuss metagames as a term for the way people tackle the games they play. Rather than yelling at each other, or composing elaborate, IRC-crowd-pleasing posts explaining why QuantumDelta occupies a delusional alternate reality that would have DESTROYED FREESPACE ITSELF, you should accept that you and QD play different metagames, which may run by different rules. QD's is hypercompetitive and mechanics-based. Yours is noncompetitive and fluff-based.

You don't need to prove anything to anybody. It's not like people are suddenly going to decide you don't have any metaphorical clothes because you can't pass QuantumDelta Training Gauntlet #426: Fire-Beam (Repeat 10000). This is a friendly community.

If you're afraid of losing your status in the pack, just chill out.

On a side note, Fury's AI doesn't make everything wildly harder. It makes the AI smarter, enabling sensible tactics like vertical breaks and permitting the AI access to the same toolbox the player has. You should check it out in-game to get a sense of how it changes AI behavior.

Also, can I have your permission to use this whole QD/NGTM-1R thing as an anecdote in a paper I'm doing for lab?  

[el_magnifico]

Please NGTM-1R, you're an intelligent person, stop doing this to yourself.

Otherwise, they will close this interesting topic too, and that would be the fourth time since I'm here that this happens because of an argument you started.
So I'm asking you, as a favor, please, not again.

[Scotty]

Editted to keep up with thread split.

[Scotty]

Are you aware that on difficulties below insane, the player gets a magical damage buffer and the number of attackers is actually hard-capped?

This is irrevelant as it is neither the way would have designed the game to be played, nor the way the majority of players would have/do played/play it.

Or do you mean that they MEANT for all those extra missiles besides Tempests and maybe Rockeyes to almost never be used? That they'd drop in a whole sequence of a fighter several missions long and it'd be completely useless? That is basically composed of idiots who put in a bunch of hard work knowing it would all be for nothing in the end? You're really going to bite the hand that gave us this game that way?

Did... did you just say that the way designed the game to be played is not the way would have designed the game to be played?

Did I just get my one post split into three different topics?

[QuantumDelta]

Hopefully, my FS2 playthrough will provide a little evidence as to why I strongly recommend tempest over harpoons, on any difficulty.
On the easier difficulties, Harpoons are 'less bad', but as the gloves come off and the player stops getting benefits that the AI doesn't just because of the difficulty you come to realise that having near-harpoon damage in a single volley while still having several dozen volleys available to you makes tempest simply superior.

Nevermind that they work as a complimentary additional primary, thus adds what you allude to in terms of what is important; burst damage.

...

[Spoon]

I certainly agree that Tempests are the superior missile choice etc ec
But can you guys stop praising QD as if he is some kind of god walking among mortals?
His ego is large enough as it is. 

[TrashMan]

I use both.

Harpoons are efficient and very useful to quickly clear out enemies. Fire and forget means you fire off, and move to the next enemy immediately.

Tempests are something I prefer to use against heavier, slower targets.

At the end of the day people will find the best way to use both.

[Dilmah G]

They're both decent secondaries, and suit different play-styles.

I come from the Erich Hartmann school of thought, so I tend to prefer tempests over most other missiles since they make things disappear at close range, but I like my harpoons nonetheless. Especially when I'm playing on Furian AI against Dragons that love running rings around my ship and my ****ty joystick (which I've somewhat fixed..), it's so much easier to hang back and lob harpoons at the bastard.

Anyway. Enough of this willy-swinging, boys. They're both good missiles in my opinion. Now I'd prefer we leave this thread to wither out, rather than rant on about NGTM-1R or take sides.

[Iranon]

In my opinion, usefulness of different weapons depends heavily on available space. A Loki with Tempests is arguably the finest dogfighting machine available if your shooting is good, a Loki with guided missiles is silly. A Perseus could have twice the number of guided missiles and a comfortable loadout of Tempests more than makes up for the loss of performance in a knife fight.

Similarly, Tornados may become more attractive than Harpoons if your loadout is large enough that you can afford a little waste on overkill.

Still, I can't really think of many situations where I'd fly a fighter and not choose at least one bank of Tempests. With asymetrical banks, I'm likely to put them in the smaller one though: I find them a little distracting so I only use them when I'm fairly sure they're doing some good.

[CP5670]

I prefer Tempests over anything else in the vast majority of situations. They are like a primary weapon, but can be linked with other primaries without any fire rate or energy penalty. If you combine them with a high end primary like a Kayser or Prometheus S (or a Maxim, which takes a bit more practice but often works even better), you can tear through groups of enemies at a speed not possible with anything else.

I still often take Harpoons or Tornados in a second bank though. Harpoons can sometimes be handy in TvT and dogfights due to their accuracy and fast locking time. Tornados tend to be more useful in singleplayer and co-op because of their extra range, which can allow you to sit just outside the range of anti-fighter beams.

[MatthTheGeek]

Given that the Tempest work like a secondary primary (yes, that makes sense, lalalala can't hear you), if you can easily hit something with your primaries, the Tempest will do the job 5x faster. Like Dilmah said, if you are fighting against ships that can easily circle your fighter like Lokis or Dragons, you're gonna need something else, like Trebuchet or Harpoons at longer range.

Also keep in mind that while the Tempest have a very high shield damage for a missile, Furies in FS1 don't. Interceptors>Furies for dogfights. I'd rather use dumbfire Interceptors than Furies against shielded targets.

Oh and @Battuta and QD : FS2 Insane is not a piece of cake. While FS1 is perfectly doable in Insane, AAA are ridiculously overpowered for the game to be playable at all for a human being. Lalalala can't hear you.

[Snail]

I've been away too long.



Vaguely relevant but random tangent: FS1 had terrible secondaries. Fury` was hardly any use except in those 3 missions where you have only the ML-16 against shields.

[Qent]

Given that the Tempest work like a secondary primary (yes, that makes sense, lalalala can't hear you), if you can easily hit something with your primaries, the Tempest will do the job 5x faster.

So basically you're saying that Tempests should be your primary secondary.

Now that I'm here, I'll just interject that dual-fired Tempests have nearly 5 times the armor DPS and 3 times the shield DPS of a single unlinked Kayser.