[Shade]

In this case, though, it is. It's fairly obvious in-game too if you look for it.

[QuantumDelta]

Since they have missile lock before you get in missile range half the time, yea.

Hmm.....Kayser on hard no-no?
I use it on insane :<

[ChronoReverse]

You can make up for it using Tempests if you have the luxury of reloading but in some missions you could end up looking at Seraphim bombers with zero Tempests and no weapons energy at all even if every shot landed true =(

[QuantumDelta]

You should have seen my forced entry replay on youtube (well, it's still there) I spend quite a segment of it with zero weapon energy and using tempest to bridge the gap xD (insane + fury's ai I think..?)

[ChronoReverse]

Yeah, I tried that too while trying to figure out a method that doesn't require running around doing everything myself.  A Perseus can't carry enough Tempests for me to deal with everything if I pack a Kayser.  By the time I get to the Seraphim bombers I'd have only 30 Tempests, no weapons energy and a grimace on my face.

[MatthTheGeek]

Hmm.....Kayser on hard no-no?
I use it on insane :<

In your case, you should start by telling what you can't do in insane, it'll be much smaller list.

Nope. Fury's AI lets the AI use Trebs without good-secondary-time.

Now I'm interested. How was it done ? I don't see technically how the AI can pick up a target with Treb without a wep-table hack.

[ChronoReverse]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54CH13DE6og (720p)

You can see the missiles pouring out from the Maras at various points.  The Trebuchets are also clearly shown in the latter portion, launched by your wingmen at the cruiser.

[Fury]

MatthTheGeek, this may come as a surprise to you, but "huge" flag does not prevent AI pilot from using a weapon against bombers. In turrets this flag works differently and prevents turret from targeting small ships. For this reason The E implemented a flag called capital+, which works like bomber+ flag.

The fact that Trebuchet has "huge" flag has no meaning other than it can kill corvettes and capitals, unless you equip it on turrets. Only bomber+ flag disallows AI pilot from using it against fighters, but not bombers.

As to why retail AI does not use Trebuchets or Tempests, I do not know. But custom AI can use them likely because of $smart secondary weapon selection in ai_profiles.tbl.

[MatthTheGeek]

Interesting.

Someone should fix what the wiki says about that, because it's clearly mentioned that the "bomber+" and the "huge" contradicts themselves and strictly prevent the AI to use Treb. I took that as true.

[Fury]

Actually it does not contradict anything.

Huge
Allows this weapon to do the final 10% damage to a ship with the "Big Damage" flag. Also the AI will not try to hit fighters with it.

Very true. For turrets.

Bomber+
The AI will prefer to use this weapon against bombers

Again, true.

What it does not tell you is that "huge" flag works differently for AI pilot and turrets.

[ChronoReverse]

Which means the entry in the wiki is wrong about it like MTG said =)

[MatthTheGeek]

Despite being one of the most effective anti-bomber/anti-turret weapons in the game, the AI is incapable of firing the Trebuchet. This is because of the combination of the "bomber+" flag and the "huge" flag in the table files. The first restricts the AI to firing the missile only at bombs and bombers, while the second prevents the AI from using it against smaller ships. Since these two types of targets are mutually exclusive, there are no valid targets at which the AI can fire the Trebuchet at. If you wish for AI to use Trebuchets in a mission, use the good-secondary-time SEXP.

From the Treb wiki page, last Veteran comments.

If you are right, and I have no reason to doubt you, then this entry is wrong and I bet many people around here consider this entry to be true. This must be fixed.

[QuantumDelta]

In your case, you should start by telling what you can't do in insane, it'll be much smaller list.

My point was more that it's very reasonable to use it on hard.
I think a bit of accuracy and conservative usage... more or less everyone who plays on the difficulty should be able to make good use of it.

[Narwhal]

Interesting.

Someone should fix what the wiki says about that, because it's clearly mentioned that the "bomber+" and the "huge" contradicts themselves and strictly prevent the AI to use Treb. I took that as true.

Actually, someone (Fury ?) should make a wikipage on Fury's IA content. I tried to look for information but I still don't know what is Fury's IA exactly. So it would be most welcome.

[Droid803]

Despite being one of the most effective anti-bomber/anti-turret weapons in the game, the AI is incapable of firing the Trebuchet. This is because of the combination of the "bomber+" flag and the "huge" flag in the table files. The first restricts the AI to firing the missile only at bombs and bombers, while the second prevents the AI from using it against smaller ships. Since these two types of targets are mutually exclusive, there are no valid targets at which the AI can fire the Trebuchet at. If you wish for AI to use Trebuchets in a mission, use the good-secondary-time SEXP.

From the Treb wiki page, last Veteran comments.

If you are right, and I have no reason to doubt you, then this entry is wrong and I bet many people around here consider this entry to be true. This must be fixed.

Well with retail AI the effect is thesame - the AI doesn't use trebs on anything without good-secondary-time.
Its just what's causing that which is different...or not? Maybe smart secondary selection bypasses some check? I donno.
I'd like to hear the actual reason for why the retail AI doesn't use trebs before we throw this one out the window.

Also I'm now thinking that someone should make a "fair" difficulty level where the player and the AI are on even ground (ie. no infinite weapon energy and targeting locked to lead indicator for AI, no damage buffer for player, no energy regen nerf).

[Fury]

From the Treb wiki page, last Veteran comments.

I didn't realize you were referring to Trebuchet wikipage and not weapons.tbl. I hadn't even looked at that page until now. And you can fix the information yourself, just register if you haven't already. As Droid803 said already, the information is partially valid for retail however, albeit likely for different reasons.

Actually, someone (Fury ?) should make a wikipage on Fury's IA content. I tried to look for information but I still don't know what is Fury's IA exactly. So it would be most welcome.

http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Ai.tbl
http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Ai_profiles.tbl

[General Battuta]

Interesting.

Someone should fix what the wiki says about that, because it's clearly mentioned that the "bomber+" and the "huge" contradicts themselves and strictly prevent the AI to use Treb. I took that as true.

Actually, someone (Fury ?) should make a wikipage on Fury's IA content. I tried to look for information but I still don't know what is Fury's IA exactly. So it would be most welcome.

Fury's AI is a new set of AI profiles built by Fury for Blue Planet: War in Heaven, as part of an attempt to reduce enemy count but make them behave more like human players (smarter and more challenging.) It uses a bunch of new SCP features, including a number by the wonderful Sushi.

It allows the AI to use dumbfire missiles, gives them the ability to execute vertical breaks, allows them to use strafing behaviors with glide-enabled ships, allows warship turrets to fire at their tabled rates rather than using random refire delay, and does a whole lot of other awesome things.

[Goober5000]

MatthTheGeek, this may come as a surprise to you, but "huge" flag does not prevent AI pilot from using a weapon against bombers.

It does, actually.  I just checked the code.  The AI will not choose weapons with the HUGE flag unless it's targeting a big/huge ship.  This excludes fighters and bombers.

And the good-secondary-time comment is also correct... that is checked prior to the HUGE comparison.  So you could theoretically fire Trebuchets at a wing of fighters, if all of them were named in a good-secondary-time sexp.

[Qent]

Command: All pilots, target those Basilisks with your Helios torpedoes!

[General Battuta]

MatthTheGeek, this may come as a surprise to you, but "huge" flag does not prevent AI pilot from using a weapon against bombers.

It does, actually.  I just checked the code.  The AI will not choose weapons with the HUGE flag unless it's targeting a big/huge ship.  This excludes fighters and bombers.

And the good-secondary-time comment is also correct... that is checked prior to the HUGE comparison.  So you could theoretically fire Trebuchets at a wing of fighters, if all of them were named in a good-secondary-time sexp.

u r teh nubz

The good-secondary-time trick has been known for a long while.

Fury's AI, however, permits Trebuchets to be fired at fighters and bombers. I don't know why, apparently neither you nor Fury do either, but it does. I'm guessing smart secondary weapon selection.