Author Topic: Know your Sol: History of Martian Terraforming and Colonization  (Read 26057 times)

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Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Know your Sol: History of Martian Terraforming and Colonization
Who is "Karen Ng'Mei" and why's she got a cabin near Candor Chasma?

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Know your Sol: History of Martian Terraforming and Colonization
Who is "Karen Ng'Mei" and why's she got a cabin near Candor Chasma?

Good spot.  :yes:

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Know your Sol: History of Martian Terraforming and Colonization
Please don't mistake this as eugenics of any sort or even selective breeding, it's simply what I would expect to happen quite naturally. Also, it's still not all of Martian colonists that have these traits, more like 10-20% at the most - and that's of the population before the Great War and subsequent influx of new immigrants. There are no reliable statistics of the genetic diversity of Martian demographics available at the moment.
Excellent fodder for GTVA propaganda...

Who is "Karen Ng'Mei" and why's she got a cabin near Candor Chasma?
"Karen Ng'Mei" isn't a person, it's a corporation that produces the induction coils for UEF power plants. The "cabin" is a small industrial estate.

 

Offline Tomo

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Re: Know your Sol: History of Martian Terraforming and Colonization
Several suggestions were considered, among them shipping nitrogen from the Venusian atmosphere, which was eventually deemed too slow to produce actual results in meaningful time.
This is rather nit-picky, but Venus has no nitrogen to speak of - the atmosphere is almost entirely CO2 (>96%).

However, Titan's atmosphere is >98% nitrogen, which is probably the place you were thinking of.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Know your Sol: History of Martian Terraforming and Colonization
Several suggestions were considered, among them shipping nitrogen from the Venusian atmosphere, which was eventually deemed too slow to produce actual results in meaningful time.
This is rather nit-picky, but Venus has no nitrogen to speak of - the atmosphere is almost entirely CO2 (>96%).

However, Titan's atmosphere is >98% nitrogen, which is probably the place you were thinking of.

I hate to get super nit-picky, mate, but Venus has more abundant available nitrogen than Earth by a margin, in no small part due to the insane pressure it maintains - there's just a lot of atmosphere period down there. This makes it not a half bad pick for the process.

Titan may have had concerns of its own (note what ended up happening on Europa in the BPverse.)
« Last Edit: July 02, 2010, 04:46:03 pm by General Battuta »

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Know your Sol: History of Martian Terraforming and Colonization
Whoops, and looking at the numbers (double post for update notice, btw) it looks like Venus may end up with more nitrogen per unit area than Titan too.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Know your Sol: History of Martian Terraforming and Colonization
Excellent. My secret educational plan is proceeding exactly as planned.

I hoped that someone would question some of the more surprising stuff hidden in the text. This is one of them. Venus, despite the small percentage of nitrogen still has larger absolute amount of it than Earth or Titan because the atmosphere is insanely dense and thick. Also like Battuta said, the nitrogen in Titan is better left where it is. An outer solar system moon with denser atmo than earth definitely has its uses. It would be easier to utilize than jovian moons too, since radiation is much weaker around saturn than jupiter... Of course operating in venusian atmosphere would be hard as [REDACTED]. Which is why the idea was abandoned. Along with lacking transportation capacity.
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Offline Tomo

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Re: Know your Sol: History of Martian Terraforming and Colonization
While I'll accept that Venus may have a larger *total* amount of Nitrogen (given the relative atmospheric densities), that is completely irrelevant.

How do you harvest it?

The hardest part of extracting the 78% nitrogen from Earth's atmosphere is that you have to throw out the CO2 and oxygen first as you cool and pressurise the sample.
- As we're also interested in liquid oxygen, we are throwing away less than 1% of the sample.

Extracting the 3.5% Nitrogen on Venus would mean throwing out 96.5% of what you capture and process.
- Thus the energy budget is extremely high per unit of 'useful gas'.

On Titan on the other hand, you are throwing out less than 2% of what you capture and process.
- Admittedly, it's mostly methane which is a bit 'gummy' to handle in liquid form, but that's really a cleaning challenge rather than a significant energy cost.

So really, you would be laughed out of the building for suggesting harvesting N2 from Venus - while there is a lot there in total, you aren't going to be able to *get* it.

If you suggested bringing it from Titan, they'd listen to you and then point out that bulk transport of atmospheric gases to try to bulk out the Martian atmosphere would take far too long to have any noticeable effect - either on the source or the destination.

- On the other hand, I have ignored the delta-v requirements. But those don't appear to apply in the FreeSpace universe anyway.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2010, 06:00:11 am by Tomo »

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Know your Sol: History of Martian Terraforming and Colonization
While I'll accept that Venus may have a larger *total* amount of Nitrogen (given the relative atmospheric densities), that is completely irrelevant.

Not really when the operation is done in the scale of practically inserting an entire atmosphere on another planet. You wouldn't want to ship Earth's nitrogen to Mars (what would be left on Earth?) and Titan is better off with its own atmosphere. Like I said, an outer solar system moon with denser atmosphere than Earth definitely has its uses, even if it is a tad bit cold for immediate colonization.

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How do you harvest it?

Build large city-zeppelins that float in the upper atmosphere of Venus, lower risers/pipes to lower atmosphere, pump up the gas, separate the gases with either centrifugal or cryogenic methods. If they can generate a magnetic field and rip holes to space-time continuum, energy is the least of concerns in FreeSpace universe. Abundance of raw materials and construction costs of collecting/transportation units would be the limiting factor.

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The hardest part of extracting the 78% nitrogen from Earth's atmosphere is that you have to throw out the CO2 and oxygen first as you cool and pressurise the sample.
- As we're also interested in liquid oxygen, we are throwing away less than 1% of the sample.

Yes - and moving significant volume to Mars would make an equally significant dent on Earth's atmosphere.

Remember that Mars has much lower surface gravity, so you need a much higher gas pillar to generate sufficient static pressure on the surface, so you need relatively large amounts of gas in that atmosphere...


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Extracting the 3.5% Nitrogen on Venus would mean throwing out 96.5% of what you capture and process.
- Thus the energy budget is extremely high per unit of 'useful gas'.

Except that frozen CO2 will definitely have uses as well. Inserting additional carbon and oxygen to Mars would also be beneficial. Not only would it warm up the planet, but plantation would eventually bind the carbon and release oxygen; however, GTA wanted more immediate results, therefore the bacteria was designed to produce almost exclusively pure oxygen to increase the partial pressure of oxygen to levels where it can saturate human blood and avoid hypoxia after proper acclimatization to altitude, while raising absolute pressure to levels tolerable to human soft tissues.

Prolonged exposure with no protective gear still can cause something like a full body love bite, so mechanical pressure suits and partially pressurized face masks with small compressors are often used especially for high performance tasks outside.

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On Titan on the other hand, you are throwing out less than 2% of what you capture and process.
- Admittedly, it's mostly methane which is a bit 'gummy' to handle in liquid form, but that's really a cleaning challenge rather than a significant energy cost.

And, like previously pointed out, it's more useful where it currently is.

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So really, you would be laughed out of the building for suggesting harvesting N2 from Venus - while there is a lot there in total, you aren't going to be able to *get* it.

Pay attention to the actual amount of gas in question.

Calculate how much gas would be needed to produce surface pressure of Earth altitude equivalent 2400-3000 metres on MArtian surface. Then calculate how much gas is in Earth and Titan respectively.

Venus is the best source of nitrogen (and CO2) simply because there's so much of it that it would be enough to provide atmospheres for Mars and all Jovian moons and still be too dense to make colonization possible.

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If you suggested bringing it from Titan, they'd listen to you and then point out that bulk transport of atmospheric gases to try to bulk out the Martian atmosphere would take far too long to have any noticeable effect - either on the source or the destination.

- On the other hand, I have ignored the delta-v requirements. But those don't appear to apply in the FreeSpace universe anyway.

Yep, delta v requirements don't matter much in FreeSpace due to subspace. Energy of transportation and amount of transportation units matters more - they have limited amounts of ships so they would never be able to transport meaningful volumes anyway, regardless of the source of the gas. That was the main factor that contributed to abandoning that plan.

Which is not to say that there's no activity on Venus... :drevil:
« Last Edit: July 03, 2010, 11:07:09 am by Herra Tohtori »
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Know your Sol: History of Martian Terraforming and Colonization
In addition to all the stuff HerraTohtori remembered, think about the consequences of massive nitrogen removal on Titan.

Then think about what ended up happening on Europa in the BPverse.

They had reason to be cautious.

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Know your Sol: History of Martian Terraforming and Colonization
In addition to all the stuff HerraTohtori remembered, think about the consequences of massive nitrogen removal on Titan.

Then think about what ended up happening on Europa in the BPverse.

They had reason to be cautious.
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Offline -Norbert-

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Re: Know your Sol: History of Martian Terraforming and Colonization
Quote
Then think about what ended up happening on Europa in the BPverse.
I'd love to think about that. So what did happen on Europa?

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Know your Sol: History of Martian Terraforming and Colonization
Quote
Then think about what ended up happening on Europa in the BPverse.
I'd love to think about that. So what did happen on Europa?

It was not pleasant. Read the prose to find out...
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Know your Sol: History of Martian Terraforming and Colonization
Quote
Then think about what ended up happening on Europa in the BPverse.
I'd love to think about that. So what did happen on Europa?

I think it's alluded to in the posted prose. Search for 'Europa'!

 

Offline Iss Mneur

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Re: Know your Sol: History of Martian Terraforming and Colonization
Quote
Then think about what ended up happening on Europa in the BPverse.
I'd love to think about that. So what did happen on Europa?

I think it's alluded to in the posted prose. Search for 'Europa'!

'Europa' is not mentioned by name in the OP or any other post in this thread.  Nor is Jupiter.

Searching for 'Europa' does not find anything relevant with the site search (some INFA, and other mods, but nothing from BP).  Nor does the BP website give any prose beyond the Tech Database.
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Offline The E

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Re: Know your Sol: History of Martian Terraforming and Colonization
Look at the BP site's media section. There, you will find a "Prose" category. In that, there's a dossier about the UEF. In it, you will find your answer.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Know your Sol: History of Martian Terraforming and Colonization
Quote
Then think about what ended up happening on Europa in the BPverse.
I'd love to think about that. So what did happen on Europa?

I think it's alluded to in the posted prose. Search for 'Europa'!

'Europa' is not mentioned by name in the OP or any other post in this thread.  Nor is Jupiter.

Searching for 'Europa' does not find anything relevant with the site search (some INFA, and other mods, but nothing from BP).  Nor does the BP website give any prose beyond the Tech Database.

Sorry, ambiguity - I meant the prose posted on the BP website.

I think we could make that prose a bit more accessible.

edit: wow it's REALLY hard to find D:

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Know your Sol: History of Martian Terraforming and Colonization
Iss Mneur and others curious about the Europa incident, check here.

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Know your Sol: History of Martian Terraforming and Colonization
Just in case you're the uber lazy type:

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Europa’s subsurface oceans, the source of liquid water for the entire Jovian system, were tainted by faulty desalinization equipment in 2337. The resulting die-off of native species, branded as xenocide, led ecosensitive colonists to arm their ships and flock to the banner of the extremist Gaian Effort.

 

Offline -Norbert-

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Re: Know your Sol: History of Martian Terraforming and Colonization
Oh... the FAQ style thingie.... I remember reading it, but with the wealth of information in there, that little snipped must have slipped my mind. Thanks for pointing it out.