[Turambar]

**** it.  The second we get ethanol, hydrogen, electricity etc. working in this country, I vote for some serious regime changing in Saudi Arabia.

Same thing for Pakistan too, once we get around its nukes.

can we please save up some money and get out of debt first?

[Kosh]

Why? We can just plunder it from the Saudi's as reperations for all the damage we've allowed them to do.

[Klaustrophobia]

Cut off foreign aid. 

[T-Man]

I can't blame you for being angry certainly, nor can i really counter you as i know little of the situation and havent seen these documents, but take heed for a moment;

Is it really wise to punish the populations of entire countries for the actions of a minority of politicians and intelligence leaders? It would be like punishing the whole of the US for what the Washington Sniper or Charles Manson said or did (no offense intended by that, just a good example). A lot of the terrorist attacks target Saudi Arabia and Pakistan too; why would the terrorists attack their supporters if they were so in league with them?

And is forcing other countries into Democracy really the answer? Introducing democratic ideals and human rights yes, but that necessarilly mean Westminster-style goverment everywhere. I've lived in UK all my life (pure English born and bred) and i could tell you countless flaws in democratic systems. It would be no different to Iran marching into the US and forcing everyone to convert to extremist Sharia, or Japan punishing the US for "their evil acts" in WWII (not my opinion, merely an example of what someone might say). The reformation you seek is happening, but only the countries themselves can do it and only at their speed; all that hostile takeovers or cutting foreign aid would achieve is dirtying reputations and ultimately providing the terrorists with even more support.

Dont get me wrong; i can understand all your anger and its justified anger, but my worry would be that with such acts you might catch innocents in the firing line. We'd be no better than the terrorists if we did that, and we'd be giving them the upper hand too by acting like the "Imperialist dogs" they like to paint us as. Find me a definate terrorist and i'll gladly let the bullets fly, but i would argue being Pakistani/Saudi Arabian/Muslim etc doesen't automatically make you a mortal enemy of the world in need of punishment.

A of advice my dad told me once i'd like to close with; "never let a good think like the truth get in the way of a good story". The media should always be taken with a pinch of salt; they want a story, not to give the neutral truth, and ultimately these leaked documents were put up anonymously and havent necessarilly been verified. What's to say the Taliban or Al-Qaeda havent spread false information (which they have done in the past by giving erronous reports of civilian death numbers in air attacks, if i recall right)?

As i said at the start, you know more than me, and i'm not American to boot so maybe not my place to speak, but i've felt 'blinding fury' just like this in my life; its an easy and lethal trap to fall into. To beat the terrorists, we have to be a better person than them; hearts and minds. Only with that in place can the guns and the politicians and the bombs leave anything other than anger. Next time you meet someone from Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, ask them about what's happening; you might be suprised by the response.

[karajorma]

Let's never forget that the west has done its own fair share of supporting terrorists in its own day. In fact there are few trouble spots where you can't find a government or two in the west who hasn't had a hand in making the situation worse.

[headdie]

Let's never forget that the west has done its own fair share of supporting terrorists in its own day. In fact there are few trouble spots where you can't find a government or two in the west who hasn't had a hand in making the situation worse.

not to mention the beautiful situation in Afghanistan when the west was supporting the taliban simply because it was batteling the Russians during the cold war

[Mars]

Let's never forget that the west has done its own fair share of supporting terrorists in its own day. In fact there are few trouble spots where you can't find a government or two in the west who hasn't had a hand in making the situation worse.

not to mention the beautiful situation in Afghanistan when the west was supporting the taliban simply because it was batteling the Russians during the cold war

That was a hell of a lot more intelligent, if rather short sighted than this.

Russia really did get a beating in Afghanistan thanks to the US weapons flowing in. Later some of these weapons would be used on us, but most weapons the Taliban use are actually of Russian origin.

Now we're getting our asses handed to us via our money that we gave to the Pakistanis, not years ago during the Russian occupation, but at the same time we're in Afghanistan.

[Turambar]

Why? We can just plunder it from the Saudi's as reperations for all the damage we've allowed them to do.

They said Iraq would pay for itself too.

[Kosh]

They said Iraq would pay for itself too.

Unlike Iraq Saudi Arabia actually has lots of money NOW.

Is it really wise to punish the populations of entire countries for the actions of a minority of politicians and intelligence leaders? It would be like punishing the whole of the US for what the Washington Sniper or Charles Manson said or did (no offense intended by that, just a good example). A lot of the terrorist attacks target Saudi Arabia and Pakistan too; why would the terrorists attack their supporters if they were so in league with them?

A lot of Saudi social attitudes is based on the government encouraging extremist Islam. They even have public lectures on how to beat their wives. They are taught to hate the west and everything it stands, so is it really any surprise that a lot of them do? It's no accident the overwhelming majority of 9/11 hijackers were Saudi.

And is forcing other countries into Democracy really the answer? Introducing democratic ideals and human rights yes, but that necessarilly mean Westminster-style goverment everywhere. I've lived in UK all my life (pure English born and bred) and i could tell you countless flaws in democratic systems. It would be no different to Iran marching into the US and forcing everyone to convert to extremist Sharia, or Japan punishing the US for "their evil acts" in WWII (not my opinion, merely an example of what someone might say). The reformation you seek is happening, but only the countries themselves can do it and only at their speed; all that hostile takeovers or cutting foreign aid would achieve is dirtying reputations and ultimately providing the terrorists with even more support.

This isn't about forcing democracy on anyone, it's about removing an obscenely corrupt absolute monarchy and forcing modernization. In so many ways socially and politically Saudi Arabia is stuck in time, it has far more in common with Dark Age era European kingdoms than anything we would recognize today, right down to literal witch hunts, that's right, witch hunts. They only have the technology and money they do because we buy their oil.

And I'm not too sure how much the average Saudi would notice. They have very high unemployment and poverty rates, in fact the standard of living for the average Saudi has gone down in the last 20 years.

[NGTM-1R]

It's no accident the overwhelming majority of 9/11 hijackers were Saudi.

Demographic cart before the horse. The majority of 9/11 attackers were Saudi because Saudi Arabia is the place in the Middle East that sends the most of its population abroad for higher-level schooling. If it were based on simple largest recruiting base we'd be talking Egypt.

[Nuclear1]

I'm not talking about introducing democracy to SA, necessarily...just getting rid of that damned oppressive monarchy.

[S-99]

It'd just be nice not to see muslims trying to do their version of the crusades today because of medieval they still are in there thinking.

Can't forget the ultra oppressive islamic revolution in iran (which favored the poor that are still poor).

This is just funny how pakistan supplied terrorists, then the terrorists eventually ***** slapped pakistan.

If indoctrination in this religion is so great in this area of the world, then that's perhaps the biggest collection of the most gullible sheeple i've ever seen.

Might as well take advantage of it. I'd send someone over there for recruiting, indoctrinating/brain washing, to have terrorists go after terrorists. I was thinking, at the next taliban get together, that one of them would sort of blow up in the whole group, because he was actually an undercover terrorist that goes after other terrorists. It's that old wisdom that people don't like to get a taste of the **** they give others.

[karajorma]

And exactly who do you think they'd go after once one side won?

That's exactly the kind of idiocy that got us into this mess in the first place.

[T-Man]

not to mention the beautiful situation in Afghanistan when the west was supporting the taliban simply because it was batteling the Russians during the cold war

Yeah that was definately one of those 'beauty of hindsight' moments. Was the same for us and Argentina before the Falklands; "here have this destroyer ... oh p*** we've just gone to war".

A lot of Saudi social attitudes is based on the government encouraging extremist Islam. They even have public lectures on how to beat their wives. They are taught to hate the west and everything it stands, so is it really any surprise that a lot of them do? It's no accident the overwhelming majority of 9/11 hijackers were Saudi.

It sounds like you've read a lot more into that aspect than i have. I've also heard that some families abandon female children because they prefer males; what the hell?

This isn't about forcing democracy on anyone, it's about removing an obscenely corrupt absolute monarchy and forcing modernization. In so many ways socially and politically Saudi Arabia is stuck in time, it has far more in common with Dark Age era European kingdoms than anything we would recognize today, right down to literal witch hunts, that's right, witch hunts. They only have the technology and money they do because we buy their oil.

And I'm not too sure how much the average Saudi would notice. They have very high unemployment and poverty rates, in fact the standard of living for the average Saudi has gone down in the last 20 years.

Actually i've heard a few good things coming out of their monarchy, though its likely the case of 'good apples, rotten apples, same tree'. King Abdullah (the monarch of SA) is known to be quite a believer in equality. He's already allowed the veil to be taken off in public inside hotels, and he's even offered to legalise female driving if his people wish it (sounds minor to us but to SA it would be at the same level as when we abolished black slavery). You might find some of this Dark Age belief is just keeping to old traditions and ideals that differ to ours, and a lot of them can be carried into modern life with the right mindset. A key is to show what is truly Muslim tradition and what was just put there by others (the full body veil for example isn't actually Muslim tradition if i recall right, it was an Afghan tradition someone adapted somewhere down the line). As for witchhunts, they happen certainly, but if you heard there was a peadophile or date rapist in your area, wouldnt you do one? Right or wrong regardless, same feelings, different target.

It'd just be nice not to see muslims trying to do their version of the crusades today because of medieval they still are in there thinking.

Don't disagree with you there. You'll be happy to hear a lot of Muslims (and not just those living in the west) share that thought, its just the minority are sadly a lot louder than the calmer lot. I hope projects like this one change that.

Can't forget the ultra oppressive islamic revolution in iran (which favored the poor that are still poor).

Damn right. Can't deny even i've been yelling "commando raid Ahmadinejad's ass already", but better in the long run to let the hardliners show their true colors; the more people hate them, the more support for the liberators when the time does finally come.

If indoctrination in this religion is so great in this area of the world, then that's perhaps the biggest collection of the most gullible sheeple i've ever seen.

Heh heh, perhaps. I could imagine a Muslim though arguing that the west is gullible sheeple for loving only money (which can't go with you into heaven) and getting drunk (which can destroy you), much fun as getting drunk is ; Capitalism and Materialism are almost religions in themselves when you look from the outside. A religion defines your outlook of life; what you think is important, what you think is wrong. For some, freedom and gathering money is not as valued as it is for the west, better, but not valued (that said, some Saudi Princes certainly go against that theory). Easy to follow what seems natural and right, especially if you've grown up believing it. Its a pity my dad was busy getting ready for work a minute ago, he's actually been to Saudi Arabia on buisness trips a few times (1-2 weeks a time) and i could've asked him for his opinion. He could give a better one than i can.

Might as well take advantage of it. I'd send someone over there for recruiting, indoctrinating/brain washing, to have terrorists go after terrorists. I was thinking, at the next taliban get together, that one of them would sort of blow up in the whole group, because he was actually an undercover terrorist that goes after other terrorists. It's that old wisdom that people don't like to get a taste of the **** they give others.

Okay, i confess, that made the evil side of me smirk. Would bet good money it happens already (Covert ops is Covert). Not the best solution as it causes collateral and tarnishes our rep in the long run (the better to convert them to peace) but certainly effective when all else fails.

[Kosh]

Actually i've heard a few good things coming out of their monarchy, though its likely the case of 'good apples, rotten apples, same tree'. King Abdullah (the monarch of SA) is known to be quite a believer in equality. He's already allowed the veil to be taken off in public inside hotels, and he's even offered to legalise female driving if his people wish it (sounds minor to us but to SA it would be at the same level as when we abolished black slavery)

Women's driving = epic fail

You might find some of this Dark Age belief is just keeping to old traditions and ideals that differ to ours, and a lot of them can be carried into modern life with the right mindset. A key is to show what is truly Muslim tradition and what was just put there by others (the full body veil for example isn't actually Muslim tradition if i recall right, it was an Afghan tradition someone adapted somewhere down the line).

The "old ideals" as you put it actually is comparable to how ours used to be 1000 years ago. That they still hold onto such backwardness is telling.

As for witchhunts, they happen certainly, but if you heard there was a peadophile or date rapist in your area, wouldnt you do one? Right or wrong regardless, same feelings, different target.

I'm talking about hunting for literal witches, like what they used to do in Europe and early colonial America 300+ years ago. Unlike them most of us have moved on from such fairy tale beliefs.

It'd just be nice not to see muslims trying to do their version of the crusades today because of medieval they still are in there thinking.

Right on.

[S-99]

And exactly who do you think they'd go after once one side won?

That's exactly the kind of idiocy that got us into this mess in the first place.

Depends on which side won, or who even knows who won. Terrorist groups use the media to claim that they did something; they like PR, it makes them more well known and infamous. If this group of terrorists terrorizing terrorists never reported anything, and stayed on the down low, then maybe it'd get the izlamic terrorist groups to become suspicious of each other.

Of course taking advantage of something like this would be purely evil, never be easy, and would most likely end with a new terrorist group in power.

I think the idiocy that got my country into this middle east debacle was mostly the bush family. WMD's in iraq sure was an excuse if i ever heard one = were there only for the oil. And the discovery of all of those minerals in afghanistan was probably due to forknowledge with a prior much more dastardly excuse to get my country there too.

America sort of does consume most of the worlds oil and other resources. Aside from that, reminds me of what was said about keeping a country in a perpetual state of war to be able to sway public opinion and favor in 1984.

[Scotty]

I think the idiocy that got my country into this middle east debacle was mostly the bush family. WMD's in iraq sure was an excuse if i ever heard one = were there only for the oil. And the discovery of all of those minerals in afghanistan was probably due to forknowledge with a prior much more dastardly excuse to get my country there too.

I think you attribute far too much of those motivations to malice.

WMD's in iraq sure was an excuse if i ever heard one = were there only for the oil.

I wonder how many people have actually done their research on this?

And the discovery of all of those minerals in afghanistan was probably due to forknowledge with a prior much more dastardly excuse to get my country there too.

Really?  The USGS survey was from 2007.  SIX YEARS after the invasion started.  Before then, Afghanistan, for all intents and purposes, was a spot of land with **** for resources, a ****ty spot on the map that everyone loved to try and conquer, and a ****ty place to live.

Seriously, the conspiracy theories that ten minutes of research debunks.

America sort of does consume most of the worlds oil and other resources. Aside from that, reminds me of what was said about keeping a country in a perpetual state of war to be able to sway public opinion and favor in 1984.

China?

Aside from that, can you name one war in the last... twenty years, excluding Iraq and Afghanistan, that the U.S. was involved in that wasn't in the form of U.N. peacekeeping?  Hell if you can name more than just a few in almost 70 years, I'd be surprised, and most of those would be stuff like Panama and Grenada, where we were on the ground for a matter of days before leaving.

Korea?  U.N. peacekeeping (seriously)
Persian Gulf War?  U.N. mandated action
Somalia?  U.N. peacekeeping
Intervention in Bosnia and Herzegovina?  U.N. peacekeeping

[S-99]

I was more or less going after 9/11 for motive for war by americans in the middle east. 9/11 was a concocted super fake reason for my country to be over there that was carried out by my country with the taliban and alquaida being the scapegoats. So, dont be surprised if it raises my doubts about when that mineral field was found.

9/11, a pretty bad conspiracy.

[Scotty]

9/11 was a concocted super fake reason

Wat.

Explain.

[S-99]

9/11 was heavy on the imagery concerning the twin towers. 2 planes did not take down the super structures which can and did indeed handle planes crashing into the side of them. The twin towers falling was your normal basic controlled demolition for starters.