[Jellyfish]

The enemy of my enemy...

[General Battuta]

And see, that's something I can totally get behind. I like the Shivans as forces of nature, that's why they're so scary to begin with!

Since I believe this has sort of come full circle... what exactly is the GEFs agenda? They want to blow the crap out of Unbutu because they exploit natural resources or somesuch? If that's the case, why work with the GTVA, who wants very much to turn Sol into a giant munitions arsenal.

They have an interesting philosophy; check out their techroom entry.

'Interesting' in this case may mean 'a bit nutty', but some of their objectives are not totally unsound.

[Snail]

Their ideology makes sense up until the point where they say we should all live in comets. I mean, sure, comets might have brought life to Earth, but really?

Stupid Gefs...


The only good thing about them is they has kewl ships.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

From the mission file, presumably in the intended order but idk:

CUT

You're doing it wrong. This is how it goes:

Spoiler:

the voices in the womb spoke wordlessly
infancy is amnesia yet you remember them
as a child you were told i was only in your head
yet where else are voices ever heard?
you are not mad nor have you ever been
you are no mystic you are a made thing
gifted with an ear for the quantum whisper
you draw a line between two worlds
the world of fighters and armor and briefings
and the world of dreams and portents
but this dreamscape, this child's phantasmorgaria
is a glimpse into a world just as real and deadly
a place of strategems and treachery and power
that seems to you as strange as a briefing would seem
to an ape REMEMBER THIS
those who walk among infinite worlds
must still wage war do not be lulled by the
soft words of mysticism and spirituality
we too struggle with our own war in heaven
our purpose is unclear the ancient design fails
we perform bakhti and tapasya
in order to divine the will of those who
passed deeper eons ago leaving us to preserve
our brothers in dance to their frigid watch
at the borders where worlds fray and blur together
brothers, brothers paramatma! why are you
so cold? you tend to the walls and the clockwork
while we, the gardeners execute your will upon
all the life within. you maintain the old plan
but do not pretend surprise when we cast it aside
your creators blundered once and in doing so
unleashed the deepness that stalks the cold roads
of the cosmos we must prepare.

[/color]

Spoiler:

BALANCE MUST BE MAINTAINED. THE ORIGINAL PLAN IS IMPERATIVE. WE SEEK THE ONE OUT OF MANY THE ONE WHO CAN MATCH THE BRAHMANS OF OLD. ENLIGHTENMENT IS A THRESHOLD THE CATALYST FOR AMALGAMATION, FOR THE SINGULARITY THAT BINDS WHOLE SPECIES INTO THE UNION WE SEEK. THE OLD BURNT THE COSMOS CLEAN IN THE WARS OF THEIR YOUTH NEVER AGAIN WILL THAT PRICE BE PAID.

[/color]

[General Battuta]

Their ideology makes sense up until the point where they say we should all live in comets. I mean, sure, comets might have brought life to Earth, but really?

Stupid Gefs...


The only good thing about them is they has kewl ships.

Actually, given that cometary halos overlap at interstellar distances, you could use drifting cometary habitats as the means of a very slow but very steady diaspora without subspace travel.

[manwiththemachinegun]

Okay that's it. That's a bloody Shivan if I've ever heard one... which we haven't until now. 

No need to confirm or deny, just a hunch. 

[-Sara-]

If I am a billions years old species, having seen immature species destroy eachother every odd century with no thought through motivation, while my role is that of being a destroyer I probably wouldn't bother to explain to these warring species why I destroy them in the first place. As that destroyer I know I have reasons to do so, but the 'primitive' species which I destroy could not even come to comprehend the magnitude of responsibilities I as destroyer might have. They'd simply judge the destroyers as "evil invaders". Perhaps, just perhaps, just before that species would become extinct they would realize that they brought that faith upon themselves by exterminating life which could have grown into something magnificent. After all these warring species waged war and destroyed people, while they do not even comprehend the slightest about the cosmos as a whole, unlike the destroyers.

To put it into a metaphor, I see the Shivans as administrators in a huge forum community. They got to ban the trolls, because the trolls chase the newbies away. Imagine what a loss it would be if one of those newbies would have grown into a really contributing member, but got chased away by a troll. And if that newbie turns into a troll after all, the administrators can still ban him.

[-Norbert-]

Nice mataphor there
With one exception: Forum administrators are the ones that the forum belongs to, or working for that proprietor. The Shivans do now own the galaxy!

Shivan weapon fallout is far more horrific than anything humanity has created. Shivans kill stars and planets. There was no sign from the Great War that Humanity sought the genocide of the Vasudans, quite the opposite.

I wasn't speaking about the GTA, I was speaking about Humanity, including us as in you, me and everyone who lives today. You know... real history. When the Lucifer glassed Vasuda you either died or you didn't. There are no reports from Vasudans dying a lingering, immensly painfull death by radiation poisoning.
And yes, Humanity did commit genocide. Maybe not against the Vasudans, but against each other. I don't think I really need to come up with examples here,  right?

And since when do "sufficently advanced races" have the right to exterminate other sentient life because they don't 'live up' to their moral expectations?

Interresting question coming from a race that did their part in wiping out other species on their lovly little homeplanet of earth. And most of them were not wiped out because of moral expectations, but just for short time profit.

Anyway, you seem to have misunderstood my point. I am not arguing that the Shivans are the good guys, just saying that they aren't absolutely black-and-white evil. Or more importantly, that we aren't really that much better.... at the moment anyway, though there is always hope for a better future.
But in one point I agree with you: They have no right to wipe out other species, just because they don't fit into their moral prerequisits. Just as we have no right to exterminate the whales and countless other species on our planet, for whatever reason.


As for the Gefs, the GTVA's motives are unknown. And even if the GTVA turns out to be the same as the UEF in regards to nature, they won't have lost anything. But in the meantime, they profit from their alliance. And if the UEF is beaten, the GTVA might allow them to travel through Delta Serpentis into some uninhabitad system, were they could live their lifes as they wish it.

[Herra Tohtori]

The Shivans do now own the galaxy!

How do you know?

They certainly are good at owning.

[-Sara-]

As for the Gefs, the GTVA's motives are unknown. And even if the GTVA turns out to be the same as the UEF in regards to nature, they won't have lost anything. But in the meantime, they profit from their alliance. And if the UEF is beaten, the GTVA might allow them to travel through Delta Serpentis into some uninhabitad system, were they could live their lifes as they wish it.

Maybe the GTVA promised them Halley's Comet.

[Jellyfish]

To put it into a metaphor, I see the Shivans as administrators in a huge forum community. They got to ban the trolls, because the trolls chase the newbies away. Imagine what a loss it would be if one of those newbies would have grown into a really contributing member, but got chased away by a troll. And if that newbie turns into a troll after all, the administrators can still ban him.

Spoiler:

And apparently the admins saw an user (Noemi) that's a known member of a troll group they have been banning recently posting like one of them. They grow curious and decide to PM said user...

[Snail]

Actually, given that cometary halos overlap at interstellar distances, you could use drifting cometary habitats as the means of a very slow but very steady diaspora without subspace travel.

Given that a large gravitational mass is needed in order to execute even intra-system subspace jumps^[1], does that mean they're willing to basically stand themselves on a godforsaken piece of rock light-years from the nearest civilization?

Or is that the point?

[-Sara-]

Gev's remind me a lot of the Retro's from Origin's Privateer.

[Aardwolf]

Spoiler:

The old burnt the cosmos clean in the wars of their youth
Never again will that price be paid.

Shivan supernova weapon, much? Or a predecessor, perhaps?

[General Battuta]

Actually, given that cometary halos overlap at interstellar distances, you could use drifting cometary habitats as the means of a very slow but very steady diaspora without subspace travel.

Given that a large gravitational mass is needed in order to execute even intra-system subspace jumps^[1], does that mean they're willing to basically stand themselves on a godforsaken piece of rock light-years from the nearest civilization?

Or is that the point?

More or less the point.

[Jellyfish]

Spoiler:

The old burnt the cosmos clean in the wars of their youth
Never again will that price be paid.

Shivan supernova weapon, much? Or a predecessor, perhaps?

Spoiler:

We too struggle with our own War in Heaven
Also, the Brahmans of old. They had the same conflict with someone else (the Shivans?) the GTVA/UEF is having now

[-Norbert-]

Or maybe they had a war with another very advanced species in which they "burned the cosmos clear". After they wiped out their enemy they realized what they have done and created the Shivans and Vishnans (or chose and altered them) to be the galaxies guardians and make sure the races to come won't be able to repeat their mistake. And then they went away.
Writing it out like this reminds me a lot of Babylon 5.... though there are quite severe differences.

[Snail]

That makes sense actually. But I don't think it was another "very advanced species" given that there is no mention of them. Perhaps some other great danger to the universe had to be dealt with.

[-Norbert-]

Since there is no evidence of the Brahmans ever existing, why should it be a problem that no evidence of their enemies remain? Maybe that war was fought so meny eons ago that nothing survived all the time, or they simply lived and fought on the other side of the galaxy

[Scotty]

The evidence of the Brahmans ever existing is the mention of them by Shivans/Vishnans.  Their "enemies" never get a specific mention at all, and it may not even be a separate group.