[FUBAR-BDHR]

With 3.6.12 released it's time to get Zathras 2.0 ready for release as well.  The current Zathras isn't compatible with 3.6.12 and there were several more bugs found from new checks in the code.  There have already been several Alpha builds.  It's time to wrap up.  So if you want to test and use 3.6.12 you can grab the Beta build here: Zathras 2 Beta 1.  Please report any problems noticed.  There are some know issues still and those are in Mantis so check there first.  Hopefully this will be the last release before final.

[Skullar]

That's cool !

I somehow have lost overrview what there is to be installed when installing TBP

- 3.4b core
- zathras 2.0
- 3.6.12  executables
- openal
 
something more ?

I wanted to fred some EACW missions the last 2 weeks ( was at a foreign computer ), but somehow I didnt manage to make it work... lol

[Vidmaster]

no that pretty much covers it. A campaign that takes advantage of Zathras features to test it would be an idea. Fortune Hunter campaigns for example. Also, remember to set the options in the mod menu and the launcher in general.

[Whitelight]

In Zathras 2.0, it contains a sunhawk, a very special one indeed. The engine rotates like the one in the show.

 How cool is that.   

Just one question, if you please.
Is this a variant of the Firehawk, or vise versa?

[FUBAR-BDHR]

Actually that was in Zathras 1.0 as well and most of it was in TBP 3.4b.  Apparently the Sunhawk and Firehawk were done by the same person but only one of them ever made it into the game.  The Sunhawk had some major issues with the model but I was able to fix those and get a working pof out of it. 

[Sushi]

One issue I know of:

Before 3.6.12, the "Secondary Range Multiplier" AI.tbl attribute defaulted to a value based on the index of the AI class. Basically, AI classes higher in the table had lower values and classes further down the table had higher values. The bad news was that Volition designed this hard-coded scaling with only their set of AI classes in mind: as soon as you get more than 12 or so AI classes in the file, the effective "Secondary Range Multiplier" becomes a somewhat ridiculous number, and results in the AI firing missiles from out of range (and often wasting them as a result).

In 3.6.12, this automatic scaling is handled slightly differently: rather than scale between 0 and 9 or so, then get weird as you add more AI classes, the automatic scaling is stretched based on the total number of AI classes.

Really, the best thing to do is to manually set "Secondary Range Multiplier" (and the other AI attributes) to the values you want, rather than to rely on the arcane autoscaling, old or new.

This will affect TBP, since TBP uses a large AI.tbl. Unfortunately, there are probably a bunch of missions that rely on values from the old, fundamentally-broken system. If you want true backwards compatibility, you'll need to go into AI.tbl and set "Secondary Range Multiplier" to values that match the old autoscaling scheme... I can help with the math, if you need it.
If you're willing to let things change a bit, you have a lot of options. My recommendation is probably to manually set the range multiplier to the old autoscaled values, but to cap them at something sane (1.0, 1.25, ex).

[Whitelight]

Actually that was in Zathras 1.0

I missed that one..

Contributes it to old age, or the need for glasses. 

[FUBAR-BDHR]

One issue I know of:

Before 3.6.12, the "Secondary Range Multiplier" AI.tbl attribute defaulted to a value based on the index of the AI class. Basically, AI classes higher in the table had lower values and classes further down the table had higher values. The bad news was that Volition designed this hard-coded scaling with only their set of AI classes in mind: as soon as you get more than 12 or so AI classes in the file, the effective "Secondary Range Multiplier" becomes a somewhat ridiculous number, and results in the AI firing missiles from out of range (and often wasting them as a result).

In 3.6.12, this automatic scaling is handled slightly differently: rather than scale between 0 and 9 or so, then get weird as you add more AI classes, the automatic scaling is stretched based on the total number of AI classes.

Really, the best thing to do is to manually set "Secondary Range Multiplier" (and the other AI attributes) to the values you want, rather than to rely on the arcane autoscaling, old or new.

This will affect TBP, since TBP uses a large AI.tbl. Unfortunately, there are probably a bunch of missions that rely on values from the old, fundamentally-broken system. If you want true backwards compatibility, you'll need to go into AI.tbl and set "Secondary Range Multiplier" to values that match the old autoscaling scheme... I can help with the math, if you need it.
If you're willing to let things change a bit, you have a lot of options. My recommendation is probably to manually set the range multiplier to the old autoscaled values, but to cap them at something sane (1.0, 1.25, ex).

Yea my plan on this one was to try to match the broken behavior then add new ai_profiles that any future development should use.  I'll probably picking your brain on that on IRC as soon as I finish the swarm to burst fire conversions on the primaries.  Were a lot more using swarm then I originally thought.  No wonder that limit was getting slammed.

[FUBAR-BDHR]

Table for testing the replacement of swarm primaries with burst versions:  burst-wep.tbm.  Just place in Zathras\data\tables.  You will either need to change the ships to the #burst versions for testing or edit the table and remove the #burst from the end of the entries.  

Even though I set them up as close to the originals as I could this could result in some balance issues for 2 reasons.  The biggest is the overuse of swarm on primaries was resulting in the limit being hit and weapons not firing when they should have before.  Second is burst doesn't work exactly the same as swarm.  I balanced all on medium so there should be no difference when playing on that level.  Easy and Hard should be little difference with very easy and insane being a little more off the originals.  Still it should not be enough to be a mission killer and the overall benefits outweigh any problems it may cause.  

[Col. Fishguts]

So I noticed that 3.6.12 no longer recognizes the -tbp command line option. This takes away the different warp in/out effects (blue and orange).
Is there another way to enable it now, somewhere in a table?  EDIT: Ok, I see how it works now via table, carry on

Also, the TBP3.4b shockwave has black boxes again (what has changed between FSO 3.6.10 to 3.6.12 that this happens again?). Is there an updated version in Zathras 2.0? (I'm still downloading)  EDIT2: ok, this is also fixed in Zathras, although I'm not sure how.

My nobly gripe at the moment is that there are still "ea-debris01" and "narndebris01", which are the same animated effect, wasting 52 BMPman slots and a lot of memory. To fix that you'd have first decide which name to keep and then go through all the POFs that use the other on and change the texture name accordingly.

[FUBAR-BDHR]

On the Warp part.  Yes that is controlled by tables now.  One issue though.  Only part of the change was back ported to 3.6.12.  Luckily it was as easy as just leaving the table entry for jump ins out.  This does mean that anyone using 3.6.13 for testing will need to uncomment those lines in Zathras-shp.tbm to get the correct warp effects. 

Unfortunately the debris issues isn't that easy.  The effect is a single map that is different but the glows (52 frames) are duplicates.  Currently there is no way to have narndebris01.dds use ea-debris01-glow.eff. 

[Col. Fishguts]

Unfortunately the debris issues isn't that easy.  The effect is a single map that is different but the glows (52 frames) are duplicates.  Currently there is no way to have narndebris01.dds use ea-debris01-glow.eff.  

Eh, you mean the low-res ea-debris01.dds and narndebris01.dds is the 3.4b core? Those don't match the animated glow effect anyway, but that's acceptable since they get overdrawn with the glow effect. So you could replace the texture name in the POFs with PCS2 without harm.

Also, not directly related to Zathras... but what exactly is the deal with the this strange beam fading? (See attachment)
I remember Fury commenting on that earlier (but I can't find the relevant thread anymore), it might also be related to this: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=71024.0

[attachment deleted by ninja]

[FUBAR-BDHR]

That isn't beam fading but some kind of issue where ships shoot beams from beyond their range.  Nials are great at doing it.  Haven't figured out a reason yet.  

If that is the case on debris then maybe we can find someone to make an actual usable ea-debris01.dds that matches the glows and set all ships to use that.  Of course that will be something for the next Zathras.  I'd rather not edit every model again for 2.0 and have the chance of introducing problems at this late stage. 

[Col. Fishguts]

If that is the case on debris then maybe we can find someone to make an actual usable ea-debris01.dds that matches the glows and set all ships to use that.  Of course that will be something for the next Zathras.  I'd rather not edit every model again for 2.0 and have the chance of introducing problems at this late stage.  

Oh, a simple desaturated version of one of the glow frames is completely sufficient (see attachement) for a diffuse map, when the glow effect is rendered over it you see barely anything of the diffuse map under it anyway.
The bigger job is going through all the POFs to check which ones use the narndebris01 and change them accordingly, and since I saw that you have updated most POFs from their 3.4b originals in Zathras anyway, I thought now would be a good time to fix that as well.

EDIT: Or better yet, change all debris maps on anything smaller than capships to "debris_static.dds", since the animated glow map looks rather strange on smaller ships and it's quite a resource hog.

[attachment deleted by ninja]

[FUBAR-BDHR]

What's it look like if you have glow maps disabled in the launcher?

[Col. Fishguts]

For the "ea-debris01" you'd get the grey diffuse map I've attached above. For the "debris-static" map, check out the skylark for example. The F3 lab is best suited to test this stuff, since you can enable/disable glowmaps on the fly.

[FUBAR-BDHR]

Yea hard to do outside though.

[Col. Fishguts]

Yea hard to do outside though.

Hmm, what do you mean?

[FUBAR-BDHR]

I was outside on my old laptop with no FS2, TBP, code or anything.  Just MP3 player, IRC, and Firefox. 

[Col. Fishguts]

Ah, well then get back to your underground lair and work *whiplash*