Author Topic: I think my inner child is dead  (Read 11977 times)

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Offline newman

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
Which is what I'm saying. They withdrew despite having vastly superior numbers and firepower, because they read in the script they're not supposed to win :P
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Offline headdie

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
Which is what I'm saying. They withdrew despite having vastly superior numbers and firepower, because they read in the script they're not supposed to win :P

lol fair enough
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Offline swashmebuckle

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
The Imp fleet at Endor as far as what's shown in their big reveal (and what's listed on Wookiepedia if you care about the EU poop) seems to consist of around 30 destroyers and Executor.  The Rebel fleet has a lot more big Mon Cal cruisers than what are shown close up in the build up sequence--in some shots they pretty much litter the background with wingless MC80s.  Even though the destroyer fleet probably has the rebels majorly outgunned without Executor or the DSII, it's entirely possible that they were deployed in a position that left them very vulnerable after Executor was dropped.  We don't really know enough about how capital ship combat works in SW to be able to say that X number of ships should crush Y number of ships in any situation no matter what.  Home One at least is a lot lot bigger than an ISD, so that could be another problem if the squadron is outmaneuvered to a point where they can't all gang up on her.  Combine that with the Rebels' fire ship deterrent (supposedly that's what stuff like the Gallofrees were there for) and you could see how withdrawing might be the smart course of action for the Imperials.

I'm not saying that the end of RotJ isn't ludicrous or anything, just that the Rebs winning the space battle after getting incredibly lucky a couple times is probably the more believable half.  Plenty of historic examples of small armies with good leadership and morale and tactics routing big armies with poor leadership and morale and tactics.  I consider everything after ANH to be EU anyway, so none of it counts really! :D

 

Offline newman

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
Quote from: swashmebuckle link=topic=70978.msg1403576#msg1403576
 I consider everything after ANH to be EU anyway, so none of it counts really! :D

Oh, come on, ESB was still brilliant. I consider anything before ANH.. actually, wait a moment. *waves hand* There are no movies before ANH.
You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til ya understand who's in ruttin' command here! - Jayne Cobb

 
Re: I think my inner child is dead
Debates in the Star Wars verse always crack me up.  There are two important points to consider here.

1.  The Jedi are based off Samurai.  Jedai being a Japanese word used to describe a play about Samurai.  So in order to understand the moral code, you not only have to understand Samurai mentality, but you have to understand what Lucas saw in their code.  Given he got most of his insight from Kirasowa flicks, we all know movies are always accurate representation of things.....right?  /scathing sarcasm.

2.  Lucas can't write a plot that does not have holes big enough to drive a mack truck through.  He is great at concept.  But that is about it.

 

Offline Flaser

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
Here's my take on these "issues" (nope, they still suck... though some of them could've been made to work):

1. Why Luke doesn't want to kill the Emperor - If he did, he'd slide into the dark side.... not because moral considerations, but because the manipulative bastard has riled him up into a good rage and made him hate his guts... if he lets loose he'd irrevocably fall. (Yes, I know it's idiotic, but this is how the force is portrayed in the overwhelming majority of the franchise). In the end he'd become just another well intentioned extremist. That's why the throne room was a trap, since as far as the Sith were concerned they've already won: If Luke kills the Emperor, then he'd team up with Vader and a new pair of Sith would take over the empire. If Luke kills Vader, he displaces the old apprentice and the Sith live on. Why would he do either of these? Because the dark side is seductive (I know, I know... but this is how the Force is portrayed... yada, yada)... so once he got a taste he might take more compromises.

2. Why the Imperial Navy didn't trash the Rebels even with the Death Star and the Emperor gone:

Imagine the bridge of random Imperial Star Destroyer with a high ranking admiral aboard:
-Admiral the Death Star's gone and the Emperor dead!
-Dead? Then who's in charge now?
-Errr....
-Hmm... hey, since I'm pretty high on the ladder I could be. Open a comm channel to all ships! This is admiral as the admiral of greatest seniority I'm taking charge of the fleet, so...
<another comm cuts in>
-....am assuming direct power for the...
<another>
-....so it's clear I should be the...!
<another>
-No, I'll never stand for it, I have Moff Jiles onboard and as part of the direct leadership appointed by the Emperor, he should...

...get the picture? The moment the Emperor's gone, with no clear successor the whole leadership could break down. Without a charismatic and acknowledged person like Thrawn, Dalla or Tarkin around the infighting could tear the fleet apart...
...and even if it didn't the officers would be very nervous about taking initiative on their own as Imperial doctrine discouraged wildcards and solo action. They don't know who'll be in charge and just in case they would keep as much of their forces in reserve as possible. So they'd retreat.... taking out the rebels would be a lesser problem, right now with the political turmoil ahead they'd focus on preserving their career.... or life in case the takeover gets hot.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 12:54:00 pm by Flaser »
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
Quote
magine the bride of random Imperial Star Destroyer

A Star Destroyeress?

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
Quote
magine the bride of random Imperial Star Destroyer

A Star Destroyeress?

Never happen the Empire was to misogynistic for female Star Destroyers.
“Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world”

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
Never happen the Empire was to misogynistic for female Star Destroyers.

But not misogynistic enough to kill off Supreme Mary Empress Sue Daala.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

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Offline StarSlayer

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
Never happen the Empire was to misogynistic for female Star Destroyers.

But not misogynistic enough to kill off Supreme Mary Empress Sue Daala.

I stopped reading EU once the Vong stuff started, they pretty much ruined my taste for it, up until that point she was pretty epic fail.  Plus Anderson isn't one of the better EU writers IMHO.
“Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world”

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
Never happen the Empire was to misogynistic for female Star Destroyers.

But not misogynistic enough to kill off Supreme Mary Empress Sue Daala.

rgrgrghrghrghrghrgrh kevin anderson

all my rage

Except apparently he's a really nice guy.

 

Offline The E

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
Really nice guy != Good writer. Anderson's work on Star Wars is pretty damn bad.
Let there be light
Let there be moon
Let there be stars and let there be you
Let there be monsters and let there be pain
Let us begin to feel again
--Devin Townsend, Genesis

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
Really nice guy != Good writer. Anderson's work on Star Wars is pretty damn bad.

His work on everything is pretty damn bad. But at least he's not a drooling and exploitative ingrate like, like...

gimme something here folks

 

Offline The E

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
Karen Traviss?
Let there be light
Let there be moon
Let there be stars and let there be you
Let there be monsters and let there be pain
Let us begin to feel again
--Devin Townsend, Genesis

 

Offline CountBuggula

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
Really nice guy != Good writer. Anderson's work on Star Wars is pretty damn bad.

As bad as it was, I give him credit for writing the books that really got me interested in Star Wars again when I was in middle school - which then got me playing X-Wing, reading Zahn's books (as well as several other decent EU books), watching the entire trilogy every weekend I got a chance, playing the old West End Books' Star Wars 2nd Edition RPG, and overall obsessing over all things Star Wars.  Such a huge part of my youth...and I pretty much owe it to his crappy novels.

 

Offline Flaser

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
Karen Traviss?

I really like her though YMMV. People either tend to love or hate her works as she pretty much deconstructs Star Wars in her books.

Then the really good ones (though not as philosophical as Karen):
-Michael Stackpole (good entertainment, bad guys, good guys, explosions and X-wings)
-Aaron Allston (...the above, though with lots of funny and wacky characters who have a lot of CMF that could pass for CMA in a lot of cases).

...and Timothy Zahn, the best damn Star Wars writer there is. He created Thrawn. His writing style is rather dry and sparse but IMHO it's all the better for it. Did I say he created Thrawn?

PS.: Anderson is a hack. He ruined a great deal of Star Wars. It took Stackpole to polish his turn into something good. (I Jedi).
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 

Offline CountBuggula

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
It was actually the X-Wing novels that finally killed Star Wars books for me and sent me off reading Dragonlance instead.  I think I read the first 3 and when I realized this was going to be an ongoing series with no end in sight I gave up.

 

Offline The E

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
An ongoing series with no end in sight that ended after 8 novels in total?
Let there be light
Let there be moon
Let there be stars and let there be you
Let there be monsters and let there be pain
Let us begin to feel again
--Devin Townsend, Genesis

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
Karen Traviss?

Traviss isn't exploitative but probably drools. Some of her assertions are simply idiotic.

Whoever wrote Crystal Star, maybe. It didn't really have anything to do with Star Wars.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 02:43:48 pm by NGTM-1R »
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
Karen Traviss?

Traviss isn't exploitative but probably drools.

Whoever wrote Crystal Star, maybe. It didn't really have anything to do with Star Wars.

Vonda McIntyre is actually a beast. Crystal Star was just...not her finest hour.

Karen Traviss?

I really like her though YMMV. People either tend to love or hate her works as she pretty much deconstructs Star Wars in her books.

Then the really good ones (though not as philosophical as Karen):
-Michael Stackpole (good entertainment, bad guys, good guys, explosions and X-wings)
-Aaron Allston (...the above, though with lots of funny and wacky characters who have a lot of CMF that could pass for CMA in a lot of cases).

...and Timothy Zahn, the best damn Star Wars writer there is. He created Thrawn. His writing style is rather dry and sparse but IMHO it's all the better for it. Did I say he created Thrawn?

PS.: Anderson is a hack. He ruined a great deal of Star Wars. It took Stackpole to polish his turn into something good. (I Jedi).

You forgot Matt Stover.