Author Topic: I think my inner child is dead  (Read 11979 times)

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Offline StarSlayer

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I think my inner child is dead
I happened to catch RotJ on TV this evening, and I pretty much spent the whole 2nd half wondering how the frak the Empire managed to lose at Endor.  Its like the Imps totally phoned it in.  Dirt side an entire legion of their best troops lost to a bunch of bronze age carebears.  And sorry Imps you don't get the Magellan excuse cus Ewoks sure as hell didn't have Eskrima.  They had one objective on that whole stupid moon which was protect the frakking door, and what was the first thing they did when the Ewoks show up?  Abandon the frakking door!  All they had to do is form square around the bloody entrance and let the AT-STs lay down suppressive fire.  That would have been it, done, finito.  **** they could have had thier FAC detail a couple TIE Bombers to come on down and carpet thermal detonate the surrounding area if they where feeling particularly thorough. 
Then the space battle, which still holds up as a technical marvel, over a dozen ISDs lead by a SSD should have shalacked a couple MC-80s, a Neb-B, a misc. collection of corvettes and few  Gallofree transports.  Should have been like an 8th dan Okinawan karate master against some random drunk overweight slob pulled off the street.
Finally the whole throne room thing.

"Pick up your sabre and strike me down with it.  Start your descent to the dark side my young apprentice."
"Nah I wont do it"

Whaddya mean you won't do it?  You spent the rest of the three movies murderin' tons of dudes.  How many bastards got blown up on the Death Star?  Hell you killed dozens of Stormtroopers and Jabba cronies up close and personal up to this point, yet cutting down the supreme overlord of evil is morally ambiguous?  Can't summon the fortitude to hew the geezer in two without getting all pissed first?  What the hell where you going to do if daddy wasn't their?  Hope the wrinkly old bastard tripped on his robe and fell down the elevator shaft?

I don't understand it either, I mean I've watched this film plenty of times in the past without this much frustration.  My only guess is that the prequels poisoned my mind or something.  I suppose I should be happy ANH and ESB still rock it hard.
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Offline Rodo

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
Whaddya mean you won't do it?  You spent the rest of the three movies murderin' tons of dudes.  How many bastards got blown up on the Death Star?  Hell you killed dozens of Stormtroopers and Jabba cronies up close and personal up to this point, yet cutting down the supreme overlord of evil is morally ambiguous?  Can't summon the fortitude to hew the geezer in two without getting all pissed first?  What the hell where you going to do if daddy wasn't their?  Hope the wrinkly old bastard tripped on his robe and fell down the elevator shaft?

 :lol:
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Offline chief1983

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
It seems like half of those are right on par with 50 reasons why RotJ sucks.  The carebears vs Imps seemed almost verbatim from the list ;)
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
Then the space battle, which still holds up as a technical marvel, over a dozen ISDs lead by a SSD should have shalacked a couple MC-80s, a Neb-B, a misc. collection of corvettes and few  Gallofree transports.  Should have been like an 8th dan Okinawan karate master against some random drunk overweight slob pulled off the street.

Read Heir to the Empire (again?). It offers a pretty interesting explanation. (Which I just read.)

"Pick up your sabre and strike me down with it.  Start your descent to the dark side my young apprentice."
"Nah I wont do it"

Palpatine is, as far as Luke knows, defenseless. Striking down a defenseless old dude is basically the same thing as Anakin marching into the Temple Nursery in Ep3 and killing the kids. (Recall that the Force is very much a "ENDS CANNOT JUSTIFY MEANS" application of power.) This is about the only true deep thought put into the portrayal of Anakin Skywalker, assuming that's what it is, but it demonstrates nicely the differences between father and son.


I won't defend the Ewoks though. Give me an E-11 and I'll burn them down if you like.
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Offline StarSlayer

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
Then the space battle, which still holds up as a technical marvel, over a dozen ISDs lead by a SSD should have shalacked a couple MC-80s, a Neb-B, a misc. collection of corvettes and few  Gallofree transports.  Should have been like an 8th dan Okinawan karate master against some random drunk overweight slob pulled off the street.

Read Heir to the Empire (again?). It offers a pretty interesting explanation. (Which I just read.)

I don't think Timothy Zhan being awesome and coming up with the "Imps suddenly having their Palpatine powered endorphin buzz killed" quite wipes clean the initial debacle.  If they had actually written that in the initial movie it would have been a master stroke.  But Zhan wasn't there, nor was he put in charge of the prequels.

"Pick up your sabre and strike me down with it.  Start your descent to the dark side my young apprentice."
"Nah I wont do it"

Palpatine is, as far as Luke knows, defenseless. Striking down a defenseless old dude is basically the same thing as Anakin marching into the Temple Nursery in Ep3 and killing the kids. (Recall that the Force is very much a "ENDS CANNOT JUSTIFY MEANS" application of power.) This is about the only true deep thought put into the portrayal of Anakin Skywalker, assuming that's what it is, but it demonstrates nicely the differences between father and son.

The original Death Star didn't have a janitorial staff?  Jabba's sail barge didn't have any non villainous personnel on it?  Blowing up the Death Stare 2.0 with the Emperor aboard isn't as bad as hewing him from nave to chops?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2010, 10:46:59 pm by StarSlayer »
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
The original Death Star didn't have a janitorial staff?  Jabba's sail barge didn't have any non villainous personnel on it?  Blowing up the Death Stare 2.0 with the Emperor aboard isn't as bad as hewing him from nave to chops?

They had a defense, a chance. It may have been controlled and carried out by others but they did. The Emperor, not so much. (At least as far as Luke knew.)

You're also assuming that one law covers all in a world with geniune superpowers. This can't be the case because there are two distinct classes of people which exist due to basic differences in capablity. It's like saying that the same laws which apply to normal people must apply to the mentally ill.

The rules which apply to Jedi are also not the rules which apply to other people. A Jedi, because of their unique powers, must be held to much stricter moral standards to prevent abuse. Luke could no more have killed Jabba face to face than he could have the Emperor.  And there was plenty of time to abandon ship if you meant to with the Sail Barge and even a second means of escape, the only time he was actually involved as a Jedi.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
There is no dark side, no light side! Only the Force! Morality resides only in the wielder!

wooooooo potentium heresy

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
The original Death Star didn't have a janitorial staff?  Jabba's sail barge didn't have any non villainous personnel on it?  Blowing up the Death Stare 2.0 with the Emperor aboard isn't as bad as hewing him from nave to chops?

They had a defense, a chance. It may have been controlled and carried out by others but they did. The Emperor, not so much. (At least as far as Luke knew.)

You're also assuming that one law covers all in a world with geniune superpowers. This can't be the case because there are two distinct classes of people which exist due to basic differences in capablity. It's like saying that the same laws which apply to normal people must apply to the mentally ill.

The rules which apply to Jedi are also not the rules which apply to other people. A Jedi, because of their unique powers, must be held to much stricter moral standards to prevent abuse. Luke could no more have killed Jabba face to face than he could have the Emperor.  And there was plenty of time to abandon ship if you meant to with the Sail Barge and even a second means of escape, the only time he was actually involved as a Jedi.

That's one screwed up moral code that underlings who are basically doing their job get to be murdered with nary a second thought yet those that direct them have some sorta moral immunity shield.  Though I suppose thats while the Star Wars universe is just a continual seesaw between the Jedi and Sith, Jedi are too dumb to live and Sith are too dumb to rule.
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Offline chief1983

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
What, now we're reciting an argument from Clerks?  Can we get some OC up in this thread?  :P
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
That's one screwed up moral code that underlings who are basically doing their job get to be murdered with nary a second thought yet those that direct them have some sorta moral immunity shield.  Though I suppose thats while the Star Wars universe is just a continual seesaw between the Jedi and Sith, Jedi are too dumb to live and Sith are too dumb to rule.

Go back and try actually reading what I wrote.

Luke was a Jedi and involved for only one of the incidents. Jedi must be held to different standards because of their power. Luke could not have killed the DS2.0 if he had been in a cockpit for exactly the reasons you cite. But he wasn't in a cockpit for it, was he?

And he didn't kill it either, unless you're going back and deciding Zahn was right, which is a little late.

There is no dark side, no light side! Only the Force! Morality resides only in the wielder!

wooooooo potentium heresy

Emperical evidence (haha pun) suggests otherwise. :P
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
There is no dark side, no light side! Only the Force! Morality resides only in the wielder!

wooooooo potentium heresy

Emperical evidence (haha pun) suggests otherwise. :P
[/quote]

Empirical evidence is hopelessly confounded! Not to mention the lies perpetrated by those with a misguided understanding of the Force, including many of those currently charged with custody of so-called 'canon'.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
Empirical evidence is hopelessly confounded!

We could just ask Lucas. Since it's ultimately his world to define...

In fact I'm pretty sure it's been done.
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Offline Aardwolf

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
Oh wow. And here I was expecting this to be another "is this project dead" thread (just going from the title).

Good to see StarSlayer's got better sense than that.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
Empirical evidence is hopelessly confounded!

We could just ask Lucas. Since it's ultimately his world to define...

In fact I'm pretty sure it's been done.

Lucas is a doddering fool who understands nothing about the true nature of the Force. While his apparatchiks are busy trying to bury the truth, he slouches off into obsolescence.

The ultimate unity of the Force is already becoming apparent to many.

 

Offline chief1983

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
Anyone on the DS2 knew what they were doing, just because they were civilians doesn't make it excusable to build a WMD and think that you won't be in the crossfire at some point.  Even a Jedi is ok to deal with the weapon accordingly.  Same goes for the Sail Barge, or anyone working for a criminal or military power.  You know the risks involved when you sign up.

This thread is quite bizarre btw.
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iamzack:  lays

 

Offline zookeeper

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
They had one objective on that whole stupid moon which was protect the frakking door, and what was the first thing they did when the Ewoks show up?  Abandon the frakking door!  All they had to do is form square around the bloody entrance and let the AT-STs lay down suppressive fire.  That would have been it, done, finito.
You missed the part about the back door being explicitly called "a secret entrance". I've figured that the imperials were holed up protecting whatever was the main entrance to the generator, and the reason the rebels ever got inside in the first place was because the imperials weren't expecting them to go that way. Of course it's still stupid that they didn't bother to also set up a defense around the back door just because they didn't think some ewok would tell the rebels where it is, but a bit less stupid anyway.

 

Offline newman

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
What about the Executor being taken out by a single A-Wing? So what, it took out some control mechanism? Don't tell me there aren't redundancies on a ship that size? It's like someone told the crew that the Empire is supposed to lose in this movie according to the script, so they might as well just sit back and wait for the end. Probably had a guy on the bridge ram the thing in the DS2 the moment the ship took the first hit. That's sure what it looked like to me. Even without the Death Star and the Executor the imperial fleet still outnumbered and outgunned the rebel fleet by a lot. Guess the rebels were lucky the imperial crews in those ships read the script so they knew they were supposed to lose.
Like the robot chicken vid I can't seem to find on youtube now says:

(setting: star destroyer bridge)

- Turn the fleet around! We'll make those rebels pay!
- Sorry, we can't. They won.
- What? But we have hundreds of ships left!
- Yes, yes. But they took out the death star and killed the emperor.
- So what?! They took out the death star before..
- yes, but they didn't kill the emperor back then. They had to do both.
- So this is it? We lost? This is the end of the empire?
- afraid so..
- So what do we do now?
- I suppose we could go get a massage?
- Good idea, let's do that..
« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 06:05:32 am by newman »
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Offline headdie

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
your forgetting the blow to moral to the rank and file crew of the ships, not only have they just lost the weapon to end all wars by means unknown but also lost the figurehead of the imperial state.
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Offline newman

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
your forgetting the blow to moral to the rank and file crew of the ships, not only have they just lost the weapon to end all wars by means unknown but also lost the figurehead of the imperial state.

I didn't forget. But the blow to morale can only take you so far. There are historical examples of battles where the leader got killed by enemy spies and the battle still ended with a win for the side that lost the leader - part of it due to them being even more pissed off then before and really wanting revenge. Another factor in that equation is that leaders and morale aren't everything - well trained officers that have enough troops at their disposal can and should still carry on and fight to win.
After seeing the DS2 blow up and their Emperor die, you're telling me that the well trained imperial officers and crews of hundreds, if not thousands of star destroyers parked over Endor allowed those few mon cals and neb-b's to slowly pick them apart and even capture a few ISD's before retreating? They still had 100:1 odds, you don't need very high morale to just zerg rush the rebels. You can even use it to instill fighting spirit into your forces - tell them to get revenge for the death of the emperor. With hundreds of ISDs on your side, shouldn't be difficult. What I could buy is the rebel fleet being able to escape after taking out the DS2 before the imp fleet could react. Unfortunately what the movies and EU would have us believe is that after the DS2 blew up the imperials were suddenly on the run despite still having more numerous, better equipped forces.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 08:16:16 am by newman »
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Offline headdie

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Re: I think my inner child is dead
if you read up on the battle of endor the imperial fleet wasn't wiped out it withdrew though if you get into it the circumstances surrounding that are just as dodgy.
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