Author Topic: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare  (Read 17255 times)

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Offline qazwsx

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
Throw asteroids at them
From the other side of the galaxy

Also, remain in tight formation when in orbit, there's not much room to maneuver up there.
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Offline castor

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
Escape path through minefields/other traps.

 

Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
Throw asteroids at them
From the other side of the galaxy

Also, remain in tight formation when in orbit, there's not much room to maneuver up there.

By shooting the asteroids with plasma out of your ass?

 

Offline qazwsx

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
Throw asteroids at them
From the other side of the galaxy

Also, remain in tight formation when in orbit, there's not much room to maneuver up there.

By shooting the asteroids with plasma out of your ass?
exactly.
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Offline Flaser

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
Let's get the crud out of the way:

1. There is no stealth in space.

Thermodynamics say so. Check Project Rho for this has been debated and debunked to death. No stealth in space as long as you play by the rules of physics.

2. Decoys don't work. Any decoy that could fool your opponent will cost as much as a ship.

Newton says and thermodynamics say so. If your exhaust is of T-temperature and of L-luminescence, then you're outputting F-force. If F is smaller than what a ship would need then it's a decoy. If your decoy is as heavy as a ship and needs an engine just as big as a ship's you're better off building a ship anyway.

3. Weapons are more important than the platform they're mounted on. A space laser can have an effective range measured in light-minutes. Kinetic weapons and missiles have *unlimited* range. Provided you can push them hard enough, you could hit a target from half across the solar system.

4. Hitting is more important than destructive potential. If you can't jink you'll be hit.

There are four (and a half) kinds of weapon:

-Lasers (infra, visible, ultraviolet, X-ray). Their range limited by diffraction, but they'll have the best hit-to-miss ratio as they're light-speed weapons.

-Kinetics are rocks or metal thrown hard. Actually your biggest weapon is the ship's engine. Kinetic energy is a *****. You don't need a multi-ton railgun when your target's already on a reciprocal orbit of several hundred km/s. Kinetics have the worst hit-to-miss ratio as they can't correct their course and a maneuvering target can avoid them entirely.

They're the cheapest and *still* a weapon of mass destruction. Throw some big chunks of rock from higher up the well and gravity will give your rocks all the "OOMPH!" you need.

-Particle beams are the bastard child of kinetics and lasers, but in practice are more like short-legged lasers than kinetics. They have worse hit-to-miss ratio than lasers, but pack a bigger punch. (Ion canons are actually particle canons). They're c-fractional weapons that is most designs have their shot travel at a considerable fraction of the speed of light.

-Missiles fix the worst drawback of all your other weapons: they can react to your target as they get new data. They have practically unlimited range as you can build multi-staged or re-ignitable engines and can make them coast for a portion of their flight. Whether a missile can intercept a ship is the very same question whether a ship can intercept another. Both fall under the same restriction of space design (fuel-fraction, engine specific impulse, maximum thrust).

-Missiles could mount a variety of warheads and therefore use the best abilities of other weapons. You could mount nothing and let kinetic energy do its work however *hitting* a jinking target is really hard. You could mount a nuclear warhead, but with no medium to transmit the shock wave you'd still need to be within a couple of km-s of your target for radiation pressure to do the damage. Finally you could mount a bomb-pumped laser on the missile and get a weapon that both has an practically unlimited range and a light-speed weapon that's impossible to dodge if you're closer than a couple of light-seconds (the actual range depends on the target's ability to dodge).

-If you mount a conventional laser on your missile you end up with an automated ship, a "drone".

About weapon design:

-Kinetics could be nothing more than chunks of rock tied down and released from their harness.

-Particle beams would likely need a particle accelerator (either a helical or a linear design) so they'd be both bulky and heavy, since you can use magnetic fields to shape the particle stream it could have a small cross-section.

-Lasers will be big and have a great cross section as their range depends on the diameter of their main mirror used for focusing their attack beam. This could be a highly polished and expensive main mirror, a composite design that would be less effective but easier to maintain and repair... or even a throw-away external design that's only good for a couple of shots. Both have their pros and cons, but here's the main deal: if your ship uses a laser there's no logical reason not to build it as big as possible so it has a greater range. Therefore the laser will take up a great deal of your mission section. (While -as usual- propellant will take up the bulk of your ship).

Lasers vs Kinetics vs Missiles:

-There's a good parallel between the various weapons: A cop has a pistol that can hit a felon far away. This is the laser. He also has a shotgun that does a great deal more damage, but it can't hit objects far away. These are kinetics. (The picture is not entirely correct though as kinetics are highly speed dependent. On opposite orbits they're devastating... however if the combatants are on similar orbits they loose a great deal of their destructive potential). He also has a police dog, that he can set loose and it will track down the felon on its own.

The picture is correct as far as that the felon could also have all of these and he could shoot the dog with either his shotgun (kinetics) or his pistol (laser).

What's not accurate though is that lasers can also shoot down kinetics with impunity. The battle between "orange" vs "purple" has been long waged and the answer as to which is better: ...it depends.

A laserstar (a spaceship with a laser primary weapon) will likely be several magnitudes more expensive than a kinetistar (a spaceship with a kinetic primary weaponry). The quesiton whether kinetics have a chance depends on how much mass you can bring against the laserstar and how fast the later can jink.

If you're up to GW output levels of engines that can do full G-s of sustained thrust (torchships!), then kinetics have no chance... however in a more probably (for the early space future) mili-g powered ships with nuclear-electric engines they *do* play.
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
Actually, there could be stealth in space if the detection methods were not thermal based detection methods.

 
Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
Lies that's what heat sinks are for!
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Offline redsniper

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
Actually, there could be stealth in space if the detection methods were not thermal based detection methods.
But why wouldn't you use thermal detection methods if they work so well?
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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
saturated environments.
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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
I would think stealth technology might be possible to implement, but only if you have a fairly good idea from what direction you are going to be observed.  It is possible to cool the forward facing quarter of the ship to "ambient" temperature, but that means your heat sinks are going to have to work overtime to dissipate waste heat in a direction no one is expected to be looking from.  If there is a chance of being observed from more than one angle, that trick will not work for long if at all.

I can see it working to mask your approach to a star system as long as you are coming in unpowered and ballistic.  Once you get close enough, if they are looking from more than one location, the thermal signature from your heat sinks will show up whether you are coming in under power or not.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
if you know the direction of the enemy vessel, couldn't you pump the heat away to the far side of the ship?
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
</hivemind>
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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
We are Hugh.
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Offline The E

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
if you know the direction of the enemy vessel, couldn't you pump the heat away to the far side of the ship?

You could.... but where is the enemy? If stealth is possible, it would be possible for everyone, meaning you wouldn't be able to find a direction that is safe for you to point your radiators in. There would always be the risk of you pointing your exhaust right where an enemy can see it.
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
Some direction is better than no direction at all.  Besides which, if an enemy can see your directional exhaust, he could always have seen your non-directional exhaust had no attempt at stealth been made.

It's a "risk" with no net negatives, and only gain.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
the original question was could you lose someone, if you are trying to lose someone that implies you know where they are, or at least have a good general idea.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
 I don't think it's possible.

If your drive is off you are on a ballistic course and can be vectored and intercepted (since they have, in this scenario, detected you.) In order to alter your course, you have to turn on your drive or thrusters, and will then be detected no matter how good your stealth is unless you have some kind of terribly passive drive system that doesn't scatter (I have no idea what that would be.)

Even so, you need to cool your hull to around 2 Kelvin, and I simply don't see any way to do that.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
you use magnetic acceleration to fire 2 degree Kelvin metal pellets, altering your trajectory, getting a thin film of metal on the outside of your ship that cold seems like something that might be possible by the time we have to worrying about our space ship evading another space ship's weapon and tactical sensor systems.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
you use magnetic acceleration to fire 2 degree Kelvin metal pellets, altering your trajectory, getting a thin film of metal on the outside of your ship that cold seems like something that might be possible by the time we have to worrying about our space ship evading another space ship's weapon and tactical sensor systems.

I don't think it'd work. Putting a cold thing in front of a hot thing is not going to conceal it because heat in space is radiative.

Check out the Project Rho page, it has a long discussion on the topic.

 

Offline Thaeris

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Re: Thought Experiment RE: Space Warfare
Not only that, but if you're firing 2K projectiles, you're going to be expending energy (and thus generating heat) to cool the projectiles...

Once you're caught, you have two intelligent options...

(A.) Turn N' Burn (run away!) - and try to get away from your attacker to a safe locale...

Or...

(B.) Turn N' Fight!

Obviously, the considerations now fall into what your ship is armed with, how it handles (accelerates, etc.), and what consumables you have (fuel, life support, ammunition). Then, you must consider the same thing for your opponet. I think it's also a great idea to also realize that super sensors are kind of being overplayed - there's lots of really large things out there we don't know about even in our current situation of understanding our solar system. Being stealthy will most likely rely on the ship commander keeping in mind where his enemy is, how to avoid him, and how to stay as far away as possible. Any emitter (sensor, etc.) will lose intensity/signal strength over extreme ranges. Being an irregular, moving target will also make a ship hard to catch - ships are also likely to be pretty small in comparison to the large objects we spot moving around in space - you know, big rocks? ;p

That said, being picked up by an enemy might imply that you're close enough for whatever enemy you're dealing with to actually open up on you. If you've had this happen to you... Well, your technique was wrong, that's all.  :lol:
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