[Thaeris]

Did it explode, for the record?

[noodle]

What I mean should be very obvious in the context of the thread. I'm of course talking about all the posts that feature horribly ignorant statements about a show they've never watched.

Well I don't know if I have the same reading of those posts as you do. I don't think there's any question it's a reaction to World War II in many ways, but that doesn't make it some kind of assertion of Japanese militant nationalism.

Well I question it. Its plot involves radiation and the ship is from WW2, so it MUST have a political message about that war, right? Next you'll tell me LoGH was made in defense of autocracy or that Crest of the Stars tries to justify Japanese militarism.

inb4 you don't know what either of those are.

[General Battuta]

What I mean should be very obvious in the context of the thread. I'm of course talking about all the posts that feature horribly ignorant statements about a show they've never watched.

Well I don't know if I have the same reading of those posts as you do. I don't think there's any question it's a reaction to World War II in many ways, but that doesn't make it some kind of assertion of Japanese militant nationalism.

Well I question it. Its plot involves radiation and the ship is from WW2, so it MUST have a political message about that war, right? Next you'll tell me LoGH was made in defense of autocracy or that Crest of the Stars tries to justify Japanese militarism.

inb4 you don't know what either of those are.

I didn't know what any of those are, but Astro Boy is another example of a piece of anime that's a negotiation with Japan's history.

[Spoon]

Next you'll tell me LoGH was made in defense of autocracy or that Crest of the Stars tries to justify Japanese militarism.

The first person that will claim such a thing will have to face my terrible terrible wrath.  

That said, I'm going to watch this movie for the heck of it. Because of pew pew and boom boom.

[Klaustrophobia]

Sure man, and Wall-E is just a movie about a cute robot falling in love with another cute robot.

It is, isn't it?

Not sure if serious... but just in case, how about all that stuff on evironmentalism, mega-corporations, and rampant consumerism turning people into big fat stupids?  Actually I thought the political subtext of Wall-E was so blatantly in-your-face as to be hilarious.  I mean, come on.  "TRY BLUE!  IT'S THE NEW RED!"

I loved that movie.

yeah, i took that to be rather tounge-in-cheek.

[noodle]

I didn't know what any of those are

Most people watch Star Wars or Star Trek. They often get into fights about which is better. A much smaller number sit back and laugh at the fights, because they know that Babylon 5 is superior to both the aforementioned franchises.

The Japanese, and about 20 people outside of Japan, mock everyone else, including the B5 fans, because they know the truth. Legend of the Galactic Heroes is the true kaiser of the space operas, everything else is small time (not that I don't like B5, or Star Wars for that matter. Star Trek is largely meh, but has some nice bits).

Astro Boy is another example of a piece of anime that's a negotiation with Japan's history.

...wat.

[General Battuta]

Astro Boy is another example of a piece of anime that's a negotiation with Japan's history.

...wat.

There were some pretty good articles on the topic recently, and on why he was so important.

[noodle]

Oh, well, if you mean as in showing the Japanese that nuclear power isn't inherently evil, ok, I see your point.

[Scotty]

Wat.

The Japanese use nuclear power.  Have for decades.

[General Battuta]

Wat.

The Japanese use nuclear power.  Have for decades.

*sigh*

Go Google Astro Boy, Scotty.

[Scotty]

*rereads post*

Oh, I see.  I thought he was still referring to Space Battleship Yamato in that context, which prompted the "wat."

[Ghostavo]

What I mean should be very obvious in the context of the thread. I'm of course talking about all the posts that feature horribly ignorant statements about a show they've never watched.

Well I don't know if I have the same reading of those posts as you do. I don't think there's any question it's a reaction to World War II in many ways, but that doesn't make it some kind of assertion of Japanese militant nationalism.

Well I question it. Its plot involves radiation and the ship is from WW2, so it MUST have a political message about that war, right? Next you'll tell me LoGH was made in defense of autocracy or that Crest of the Stars tries to justify Japanese militarism.

inb4 you don't know what either of those are.

I didn't know what any of those are, but Astro Boy is another example of a piece of anime that's a negotiation with Japan's history.

Dude, you have to see either one of them if you have any atraction for serious space operas. Crest of the Stars and Banner of the Stars in particular is one of the most awesome setting I've ever seen in a sci-fi work.

[Flipside]

This is why I always liked Babylon 5, it made you realise that who we are is defined by who each and every one of us is. That was a Sci-Fi with a message that went beyond 'Good guys are Good, Bad guys are Bad'

Edit: I'll note though, I watched it for the SFX I think that you cannot make a movie without a message, whether intentional or not, whether it's the incredibly corny and crowbarred 'Only the Sith deal in absolutes' to the more profound messages in BSG etc, but how that message is recieved will always be up to the person watching, not the Director.

[NGTM-1R]

What I mean should be very obvious in the context of the thread. I'm of course talking about all the posts that feature horribly ignorant statements about a show they've never watched.

I daresay I've watched more Yamato than you have. Hell, I even poked around the darker corners of the fandom a few times to amuse myself. Don't get me wrong, it's fun as hell to watch, I love it (though there are movies I'd rather forget, rather like Nadesico's movie). But it's still at best got far too much Japan Saves The Day not to view it as such. The composition of the crew, the nature of the ship, how they name they fighters. It's pretty basic-level stuff, pervasive, hides in plain sight. I'm not sure they set out with the goal in mind, but what came out is pretty dodgey. And this is a Japanese work, so you have to remember to filter for Japanese views of the history. That really doesn't help the case, since in Japan's view of the war at the time (and to an ugly extent still) they were on a great liberating crusade to free Asia from the choking, imperialistic white Europeans. (Ironically, this is the only war aim they accomplished.)

So yes, I maintain that Yamato is, if not outright Imperial Japan apologia over WW2, drifting dangerously close to it. Doesn't mean I won't watch the movie and enjoy it.

Try again.

[Flipside]

It could just be a case of 'over-running an idea' though, someone comes up with the thought "Why not make a spaceship out of the Yamato's Hull?", which is great, and then they stretch the whole WW2 metaphor to beyond breaking point in trying to orbit everything around the central 'character' of the thing. In situations like that, whilst the bias of the creator certainly shows, it's not really done to make a statement, it's more made out of ignorance to the whole picture. There are certainly plenty of Hollywood produced shows that suffer from exactly the same disease.

Star Trek TOS, for example, tended to only use American vessel names, (though that changed in TNG with the Yamato being the Enterprise's sister ship) or the fact that every officer in the Imperial Navy in Star Wars happened to speak with a very British accent, partly because we are good at bad guys, but it's been hinted more than once that the merging of British and the Empire may also have been subconciously based on our own reputation in the US.

[noodle]

What I mean should be very obvious in the context of the thread. I'm of course talking about all the posts that feature horribly ignorant statements about a show they've never watched.

I daresay I've watched more Yamato than you have. Hell, I even poked around the darker corners of the fandom a few times to amuse myself. Don't get me wrong, it's fun as hell to watch, I love it (though there are movies I'd rather forget, rather like Nadesico's movie). But it's still at best got far too much Japan Saves The Day not to view it as such. The composition of the crew, the nature of the ship, how they name they fighters. It's pretty basic-level stuff, pervasive, hides in plain sight. I'm not sure they set out with the goal in mind, but what came out is pretty dodgey. And this is a Japanese work, so you have to remember to filter for Japanese views of the history. That really doesn't help the case, since in Japan's view of the war at the time (and to an ugly extent still) they were on a great liberating crusade to free Asia from the choking, imperialistic white Europeans. (Ironically, this is the only war aim they accomplished.)

So yes, I maintain that Yamato is, if not outright Imperial Japan apologia over WW2, drifting dangerously close to it. Doesn't mean I won't watch the movie and enjoy it.

Try again.

It's a kids cartoon made in 1974 for a solely Japanese audience. That's why everyone is Japanese. You might as well complain that everyone in Mazinger or Combattler is Japanese. The fact is they never even mention any other countries or non-Japanese people (outside of a brief sequence where they talk about how the Yamato sunk, and there they just say there was a war and the Americans raped it with 1,000 planes). And not in a self-serving way, they just never have any reason to. It's pretty obvious the story is more about saving Japan than anything, but of course Japan is on Earth so they kind of have to save the rest of the world along with it. In fact you could even assume that Japan is simply the sole country that hasn't completely succumbed to the radiation yet (though the existence of Harlock, of German descent, several hundred years later would count against this, but Leiji doesn't exactly care about continuity).

You honestly have to try very hard to find something offensive or apologetic in Yamato. And if there is any such thing in there (and I don't think there is) it's certainly no where near as mind-bogglingly retarded as so much American fiction is. Take for example, Independence Day, where the rest of the world literally sits around waiting for the Americans to find a way to beat the aliens and then tell them how to do it.

[mxlm]

In situations like that, whilst the bias of the creator certainly shows, it's not really done to make a statement, it's more made out of ignorance to the whole picture.

As you more or less acknowledge in this statement, subtext isn't necessarily deliberate.

Re: Empire, that was a deliberate choice on the part of the director.

[Mika]

But it's still at best got far too much Japan Saves The Day not to view it as such. The composition of the crew, the nature of the ship, how they name they fighters. It's pretty basic-level stuff, pervasive, hides in plain sight.

This, of course, never ever happens in any American movies and they would never try to crowbar that kind of **** in there in plain sight... And incidentally, Team America is only a funny cartoon and does not mock US saves the day cliches at all.

Somehow I have grown to accept that and I apply the same logic to movies coming from every country, Japan included. Doesn't really bother me at all.

[Bobboau]

sort of like who Dr Who is always stopping aliens from eating London, and rarely anywhere else more than once.

[NGTM-1R]

This, of course, never ever happens in any American movies and they would never try to crowbar that kind of **** in there in plain sight...

I know you maybe haven't watched an anime in a long time or something, but maybe you didn't notice how Macross or the like specifically went out of their way to make the cast look multicultural? I grant, at the time, the medium was new and mistakes would be made, but they're much better than this about at least looking different. Christ, Sailor Moon had more ethnic diversity in the cast's appearance, and it didn't even have a reason to. We've got like one European-looking person on the Yamato in total.

For that matter, Micheal Bey and the Transformers movies ain't US moviemaking.  Shocking, I know. Or maybe you like to ignore the setting of the work, and just assume that because they set it somewhere familar that's a great conspiracy on my part. I dunno.