[Rodo]

Oh I see so there's big ships everywhere... now I like it

[General Battuta]

Wait, did WWI happen or not?

[The E]

World War 1 happened. The point of departure for this universe is sometime afterwards; Not only is there the discovery of flystone, but in addition, the right-wing movement never crystallized in Germany, as a certain Hitler-shaped focal point was missing. In addition, the great depression didn't hit as hard as it did, thus eliminating one of the influences of the time.

[spyderrock48]

haha i like the fact that we are representing germany so factually, it did indeed have the engineering designs and plans for most of our modern aviation technology, good to see credit given

[gevatter Lars]

A thought that I had while reading about the flugstein stuff. How difficulte might it be to produce this?
I mean you said everyone knows how to produce these but does that also mean that everyone has the capacity to do so in a large mass?
What if smaller countries don't have the capacitys but still want some protection against these flying fortresses? I guess it would lead to some kind of specialised technological developments.

Concidering the range such a air-battleship would have I think something that could hurt it would be something like a big missle with a semi-guidance. (Like there are cable guided missiles today.)
Else there could be a development of "Sniper-AA" guns. Think of a 88 flak just bigger or so ^_^
Third and maybe the cheapest and most mobile weapon could be the development of air-torpedos that are used by fighter-bomber planes.

I think that could improve mission variaty a bit. Some options could be to take out incomming big-missiles, going close to the ground and search for these pesty 88 flaks or get the fighter-bombers before they deliver their payload.

[The E]

A thought that I had while reading about the flugstein stuff. How difficulte might it be to produce this?
I mean you said everyone knows how to produce these but does that also mean that everyone has the capacity to do so in a large mass?
What if smaller countries don't have the capacitys but still want some protection against these flying fortresses? I guess it would lead to some kind of specialised technological developments.

I think that, in order to produce it, you need the resources of at least a major nation. You need to have a pretty well-developed scientific community to do it, in order to run the magic machines that make flystone.

Concidering the range such a air-battleship would have I think something that could hurt it would be something like a big missle with a semi-guidance. (Like there are cable guided missiles today.)
Else there could be a development of "Sniper-AA" guns. Think of a 88 flak just bigger or so ^_^
Third and maybe the cheapest and most mobile weapon could be the development of air-torpedos that are used by fighter-bomber planes.

Problem is that battleships are massively armored. Fighters can get a mission kill on them by disabling their weapons and main propulsion (which effectively forces the ship to go to ground to do repairs). Bombers are a greater danger, as they can fly higher and then drop semi-guided bombs on them, which is why there are dedicated carrier ships that carry escort fighters. It's a lot like the Wing Commander fleet model, with lots of specialized ships.

As for ground based defence, SAMs are a great danger (but incredibly expensive), and flak guns have been up-gunned to calibers that resemble your usual field artillery, firing a mix of armor penetrating and airburst shells.

I think that could improve mission variaty a bit. Some options could be to take out incomming big-missiles, going close to the ground and search for these pesty 88 flaks or get the fighter-bombers before they deliver their payload.

All possible

[swashmebuckle]

A fluff proposal: The anti-grav substance is normally totally inert; it's only when you get a big pile of it together and run a direct current through it that it exhibits its unique properties.

What do the civilizations of the galaxy call it?

Fugium?  Reluctium?  Maxwellium?  Viagrium (it does get you up)?  Flubber?  It all depends on the tone of the mod I suppose...

World War 1 happened. The point of departure for this universe is sometime afterwards

So...no Flying Hussars and Habsburg Dragoonships?

[The E]

So...no Flying Hussars and Habsburg Dragoonships?

There could be. I'm not going to write up descriptions for all european states, if you can come up with an explanation why a given thing should be in this, and I like it, it's in.

[General Battuta]

A fluff proposal: The anti-grav substance is normally totally inert; it's only when you get a big pile of it together and run a direct current through it that it exhibits its unique properties.

What do the civilizations of the galaxy call it?

Fugium?  Reluctium?  Maxwellium?  Viagrium (it does get you up)?  Flubber?  It all depends on the tone of the mod I suppose...

Somebody hasn't played Mass Effect! 

World War 1 happened. The point of departure for this universe is sometime afterwards

So...no Flying Hussars and Habsburg Dragoonships?
[/quote]

I...do kind of like the pre-WWI setting swashmebuckle proposed...

[The E]

Well, it does have its appeal, don't get me wrong.


But I sooo want to do a mission where you assault Albert Einstein's mountain hideout....

In the end, it really doesn't matter at this point. I like the 1940s as a playing field simply because of the level of technology available. This whole thing could work earlier, but that would mean dragiing Tesla into this, and I'd rather not do that.

[General Battuta]

Well, it does have its appeal, don't get me wrong.


But I sooo want to do a mission where you assault Albert Einstein's mountain hideout....

In the end, it really doesn't matter at this point. I like the 1940s as a playing field simply because of the level of technology available. This whole thing could work earlier, but that would mean dragiing Tesla into this, and I'd rather not do that.

We could still have it in the 1940s, just move the divergence point earlier.

[The E]

True, I suppose. However, I am not as comfortable extrapolating history that far back.

[swashmebuckle]

Somebody hasn't played Mass Effect! 

Drat, I knew something was going over my head there!  It totally sounds like a terrible pun setup: What do you get when you run a direct current through an Electrombonium pile?  But yes, I haven't played Mass Effect, though it's on my list for the distant future.  The last few times I've had enough money to think about getting a new console, I've spent it on new samples and studio monitors and springing chief1983 from federal prison.

As for my Détante idea, the setting I was thinking of was also the 40s (so you could still use WWII planes--progress in that area might have actually been a bit faster than in our timeline as air combat would have been the primary focus), but with the political situation semi-stagnated from pre-WWI.  If you wanted, you could combine the two schemes: say that WWI happened but was aborted after a year or so instead of dragging on interminably.  Maybe the elites on both sides realized that they all had more to lose than they first thought.  Austria-Hungary and the Ottomans could have cut their losses and made a deal to back out of the war and consolidate their power, leaving Germany in the lurch.  The Entente powers then would have forced Germany to surrender and make reparations, but the conditions would have been less harsh than in our history.  Consequently, Germany suffers more at first than the other parties and undergoes a couple regime changes like you said, but in the 20s they are able to catch up to (and in some areas surpass) their victorious neighbors who are bleeding away resources trying to stem the spread of communism while holding down their colonies with America playing all sides against the middle.  Add in the Einstein/Heisenberg awesome stuff and you're there--they seem pretty compatible to me

[The E]

Agreed, that would work quite well indeed.

[Vengence]

, but in addition, the right-wing movement never crystallized in Germany, as a certain Hitler-shaped focal point was missing.

Not to make a political argument but the idea that it was a right wing movement doesn't really jar right with me considering they are called the "National Socialist Workers Party" where 'Socialist' is by definition a left-wing movement and that they are fascist dictators which represent total government control... which is also a definition of far left in contrast to far right which would equate to total anarchy.... Obviously there was not anarchy after the big N's took control. And they were anti capitalism too, which is a right leaning philosophy. Sooo... how is this classified as a right movement anyways if they don't run the 'Small Government' mantra ? Am I missing something ?

[General Battuta]

, but in addition, the right-wing movement never crystallized in Germany, as a certain Hitler-shaped focal point was missing.

Not to make a political argument but the idea that it was a right wing movement doesn't really jar right with me considering they are called the "National Socialist Workers Party" where 'Socialist' is by definition a left-wing movement and that they are fascist dictators which represent total government control... which is also a definition of far left in contrast to far right which would equate to total anarchy.... Obviously there was not anarchy after the big N's took control. And they were anti capitalism too, which is a right leaning philosophy. Sooo... how is this classified as a right movement anyways if they don't run the 'Small Government' mantra ? Am I missing something ?

Oh, brother.

First off, you are talking to a German.

Second, you have the axes of your political diagram mixed up. Neither left nor right are associated with authoritarianism vs. anarchy. The Nazi Party was ultra-right wing and horribly authoritarian. Soviet Communism was ultra-left wing and horribly authoritarian.

They were both on the authoritarian end of this diagram:



All historically important political philosophies can be plotted here. Anarchy is a left-wing, highly libertarian notion. Fascism is a right-wing, highly authoritarian notion. Soviet Communism was a left-wing, highly authoritarian notion.

The notion that 'right wing' is associated with 'small government, pro-capitalism' is something very recent, very specifically American, and very much not applicable to Germany circa 1930-1940. Today's American right wing movement is very liberal compared to the Nazis, and depending on who you talk to, oscillates between somewhat libertarian (small government, expanded freedoms) and somewhat authoritarian (Bush-style big government, legislation of social issues, etc.)

[Vengence]

You don't have to get all worked up on me, I just never really got how they were called that. Never saw that graph either, everyone keeps slapping the single lined graph at me and for some reason they get labeled on the far right side and given their name I never really got it. Sorry about that General  .

[General Battuta]

You don't have to get all worked up on me, I just never really got how they were called that. Never saw that graph either, everyone keeps slapping the single lined graph at me and for some reason they get labeled on the far right side and given their name I never really got it. Sorry about that General  .

No problem, sorry if I came off too snappy. I was just afraid this awesome thread was gonna derail into GenDisc territory.

[The E]

The NSDAP's name (Which, in full, translates to "National Socialist Democratic Worker's Party") was deliberately chosen to muddy the waters, and to increase its appeal to the people who didn't want to sign up with the Communists (German Communist Party, KPD) or who were disillusioned with the social democrats (Social Democratic Party of Germany, SPD).

Also note that "National Socialist" is one word in german, and was chosen to represent the specific brand of fashism they stood for. It's philosophy was distinctly different from true socialism; while certain buzzwords were shared, the actual policies differed wildly.

[Vengence]

No problem, sorry if I came off too snappy. I was just afraid this awesome thread was gonna derail into GenDisc territory.

I wouldn't let that happen, least I wouldn't want it to get big. Just wanted some clarification since some sources are conflicting with me.

*waves jedi hand "You can go about your business. Move along"*