[Sushi]

In fairness, I seem to recall that frequently stated that it was problems with their hardware, not the Shivan's that meant there were no Beam Weapons in the first war, I think the lack of surprise exhibited in FS2 when they had them was meant to emphasise that.

That's how I've always interpreted it too. Any Great War-era mission I write will have Shivans with beams and flak and Terrans still using blob turrets.

[Rodo]

ME HATES BLOBS.
High ROF lazors would have been better, like the guns used on UEF ships, with burst and all.

[Hades]

In fairness, I seem to recall that frequently stated that it was problems with their hardware, not the Shivan's that meant there were no Beam Weapons in the first war, I think the lack of surprise exhibited in FS2 when they had them was meant to emphasise that.

That's how I've always interpreted it too. Any Great War-era mission I write will have Shivans with beams and flak and Terrans still using blob turrets.

Frankly, flak as it is in FreeSpace would seem more of a Terran weapon honestly.

[General Battuta]

In fairness, I seem to recall that frequently stated that it was problems with their hardware, not the Shivan's that meant there were no Beam Weapons in the first war, I think the lack of surprise exhibited in FS2 when they had them was meant to emphasise that.

That's how I've always interpreted it too. Any Great War-era mission I write will have Shivans with beams and flak and Terrans still using blob turrets.

Frankly, flak as it is in FreeSpace would seem more of a Terran weapon honestly.

No. Don't confuse the science fiction stereotypes of 'Humans = boolets and exploding things vaguely akin to World War II; aliens = lazors and pretty lights' with...uh, the fact that we don't want to use that stereotype.

[Hades]

Well no, we sure wouldn't want that but flak, as it is now, doesn't seem all that Shivan quite frankly.

[General Battuta]

o rly why

[NGTM-1R]

o rly why

Because frankly, Shivans don't heavily arm their ships for antifighter work. So AAA, flak, much of anything pointed at fighters doesn't seem them.

[General Battuta]

o rly why

Because frankly, Shivans don't heavily arm their ships for antifighter work. So AAA, flak, much of anything pointed at fighters doesn't seem them.

no

[NGTM-1R]

Thank you for your clear, concise, meaningful reply.

[General Battuta]

Thank you for your clear, concise, meaningful reply.

yay

[Pred the Penguin]

o rly why

Because frankly, Shivans don't heavily arm their ships for antifighter work. So AAA, flak, much of anything pointed at fighters doesn't seem them.

But without those things all the GTVA would need to do is spam fighters and bombers...

[General Battuta]

To a degree I do feel that the Shivans shouldn't have flak and AAA during the Great War (though...it'd be sort of cool to fly against...) in part because I think the fact that their technology develops between the two wars is part of what makes them not a cliche; even though they're ancient they seem to react and escalate in proportion to the GT(V)A's abilities.

But if you want to throw them into the Great War it could be cool. And hey maybe a custom PD solution for them back then could be fun.

[T-LoW]

To a degree I do feel that the Shivans shouldn't have flak and AAA during the Great War (though...it'd be sort of cool to fly against...)

Have you played "What if..." by SF-Junky? It's great

[Sushi]

To a degree I do feel that the Shivans shouldn't have flak and AAA during the Great War (though...it'd be sort of cool to fly against...)

Have you played "What if..." by SF-Junky? It's great

I haven't played it, but I can verify from first-hand modding that the following combination is a lot of fun:

- Start with FSPort
- Shivan caps have FS2 weapons
- Shivan fighter max sidethrust bumped to 75% of their max forward velocity (also glide enabled)
- Shivan fighter AI somewhat sucky
- Terran/Vasudan fighter AI boosted
- Terran/Vasudan fighters get glide, and minimal sidethrust (something like 10% of forward thrust)
- Blob turrets get PI-like settings (Rapid-fire)

Makes the Shivans into a force with markedly superior technology and firepower. This is balanced somewhat by the fact that their fighter pilots are somewhat uninspired. And IMHO it's really, really fun. I was going to make a minicampaign based on it, then decided against it. I may eventually release the one mission I've actually developed significantly for it, but I don't know if/when that will happen.

[General Battuta]

Blob turrets get PI-like settings (Rapid-fire)

PI blobs were still pretty bad because the AI profile did not fundamentally address the issue, namely the random turret refire delay.

Shivan fighter AI somewhat sucky

why why why why nooo

At least in FS2 I believe there was a general tendency for the Shivan fighters to have stronger AI classes. This should be maintained'd'd'd!\

Makes the Shivans into a force with markedly superior technology and firepower. This is balanced somewhat by the fact that their fighter pilots are somewhat uninspired.

Ah, yes, I recognize this one! The aliens are overwhelming in their technological might, but it's lucky we have plucky, manly fighter pilots to go out there and overcome their droningly simpleminded fighters with derring-do!

Sorry for the snark, it sounds like awesome fun but I'm not totally comfortable with some of these directions in terms of maintaining the mood around the Shivans.

[Sushi]

Shivan fighter AI somewhat sucky

why why why why nooo

At least in FS2 I believe there was a general tendency for the Shivan fighters to have stronger AI classes. This should be maintained'd'd'd!\

Makes the Shivans into a force with markedly superior technology and firepower. This is balanced somewhat by the fact that their fighter pilots are somewhat uninspired.

Ah, yes, I recognize this one! The aliens are overwhelming in their technological might, but it's lucky we have plucky, manly fighter pilots to go out there and overcome their droningly simpleminded fighters with derring-do!

Sorry for the snark, it sounds like awesome fun but I'm not totally comfortable with some of these directions in terms of maintaining the mood around the Shivans.

It's OK, I kind of expected you'd react that way. Yes, it's another cliche trope, but so is everything else. IMHO it's a mechanic that makes things fun. Besides, if you start with the premise that the Shivans are technologically superior, you have to give the humans something if you want any credible path for them to survive (and more importantly, you have to give something to the player). The point is to have a situation where you can have Awesome Superior Foe in more than name only, and also without being steamrolled in a not fun way. The latter is exactly what FS1 does, with the Lucifer being the sole exception by virtue of being invincible: once the Terrans get some shields and Avengers, they are pretty much a match for anything Shivan. That, I think is the pet peeve I've been trying to address via mod.

 should probably also clarify that this whole thing is done with custom fighter AI classes. When I say that the Shivan fighter AI is sucky, I mostly mean that their aim is worse, not that they fly in straight lines.

Anyway, to each his own. We obviously have very different views of the Freespace universe.

[General Battuta]

I'm okay with bad aim, actually, it works for me as a mechanic because I think for an enemy to be threatening it just has to seem agile, reactive and smart; overwhelming firepower just makes it annoying.

And you could have it converge towards better accuracy on higher difficulties anyway.

But yeah I do think the cornerstone of FS is the Shivans being scary.

[Marcov]

Apparently as I see it, the possible primary reason why Shivans have less dangerous anti-fighter armament (yet, of course, have far more fatal anti-capship armament than their GTVA counterparts) is simply because the player flies a FIGHTER. Volition wouldn't want to be pessimistic about realism and stuff.

I've tried flying a Shivan fighter - and figured out that their lasers are quite unbalanced. Why?
- to give the player a chance.

I'm okay with bad aim, actually, it works for me as a mechanic because I think for an enemy to be threatening it just has to seem agile, reactive and smart; overwhelming firepower just makes it annoying.

Most newbie players might find badass bombers such as the Nephilim quite threatening (multiple lasers to hit you anywhere - it's a "flying fortress" of the 24th century) so the best way to take it down is to use twin Kaysers on an Erinyes, blasting it out in a couple of seconds from long range 

But yeah I do think the cornerstone of FS is the Shivans being scary.

Game-wise, probably not. I would restart the game more often if I challenge a stupid NTF cruiser firing its SGreen into a fragile freighter, or get gunned down by the dang flak on an Aeolus.

[Eishtmo]

I'm bringing us back to the Hecate topic, and I think a lot of you are missing a key fact regarding it:

Space is big.  Really, REALLY big.

A dedicated carrier is actually in no more danger than any other class of ship simply because you have to FIND the damn thing first, and even within the confines of a single star system, that's a lot of space to search through.  With subspace drives, a carrier, even if found, can frequently simply jump out of the area and be safe, leaving it's fighters and bombers to handle the enemy ships.  The way you guys are talking, it would be better to not have ships at all, because they might get destroyed.  It happens, get over it.

Side note, aside from a few of the fighters in the game, ALL the ships in FS2 were designed before the Second Incursion.  That said, the Hecate was likely created well before ANY of the others you see that are not Great War vets.  In that time period you have the following:

1.)  A divided Terran population (multiple Terran factions).
2.)  A barely functioning economy (Earth was the hub of all things)
3.)  They probably didn't have big honking space lasers

The Hecate was designed to counter the Shivan fighter/bomber threat and to deliver the most powerful weapons in the GTVA arsenal:  Bombs.  Harbingers and the like.  THESE are what took down most of the Shivan capital ships in the Great War, including the Lucifer itself.  It makes sense that they would design a ship specifically to perform such tasks, and that is the Hecate.

It also helps that if a bunch of fighters getting killed trying to take down an enemy destroyer, than the losses in personal and material is much, MUCH less than if a beam cannon toting Hatty gets blown to hell in the same engagement.  It's very similar to the change in navel tactics during WWII, from big gun battleships, that could certainly rip through any carrier they ran into, to the carrier, which never even had to get remotely close.  Battleships were too vulnerable to the cheap fighters, and so they disappeared.

Based on cost, utility, and flexibility, I'd rather have a Hecate on the battlefield than a tweaked out Orion.  Or not on the battlefield but instead having it's fighter groups there, as the case may be.

[General Battuta]

I'm bringing us back to the Hecate topic, and I think a lot of you are missing a key fact regarding it:

Space is big.  Really, REALLY big.

A dedicated carrier is actually in no more danger than any other class of ship simply because you have to FIND the damn thing first, and even within the confines of a single star system, that's a lot of space to search through.  With subspace drives, a carrier, even if found, can frequently simply jump out of the area and be safe, leaving it's fighters and bombers to handle the enemy ships.  The way you guys are talking, it would be better to not have ships at all, because they might get destroyed.  It happens, get over it.

This is nice, as a notion, but flies in the face of canon, where recon elements track down enemy destroyers all the time (the Ravana, the Vindicator, what have you.)

The Hecate was designed to counter the Shivan fighter/bomber threat and to deliver the most powerful weapons in the GTVA arsenal:  Bombs.  Harbingers and the like.  THESE are what took down most of the Shivan capital ships in the Great War, including the Lucifer itself.  It makes sense that they would design a ship specifically to perform such tasks, and that is the Hecate.

Nobody's arguing this, I don't think, it just doesn't end up working.

Based on cost, utility, and flexibility, I'd rather have a Hecate on the battlefield than a tweaked out Orion.  Or not on the battlefield but instead having it's fighter groups there, as the case may be.

It's not totally a fair comparison, but - attacking the Meridian vs. attacking the Carthage, man.

The Hecate's advantages are all nice, in theory, until you realize that space is tiny in FreeSpace, because subspace; and ships rapidly and routinely get vectored to their origins, because subspace tracking; and that makes a carrier that can't defend itself a problem - as we see twice in FreeSpace 2, where the best the Hecate can do is run.

It has its place, and it arguably could do well if it were employed far better than it was in canon, but ultimately I think the Hecate is just a little too weak, even as a strike carrier, to be considered an outright success. I know I had to get pretty creative to make them remotely threatening and other FREDders I've talked to sort of end up with the same response.