Author Topic: The future is bull****  (Read 12625 times)

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Offline iamzack

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Re: The future is bull****
I buy water because tap water here tastes like rot and poison. :<
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline Rodo

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Re: The future is bull****
I buy water because tap water here tastes like rot and poison. :<
A water purifier might work, not sure as to what degree of water contamination are we talking about..
el hombre vicio...

 

Offline swashmebuckle

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Re: The future is bull****
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that eventually people will directly patronize those who work in fields where the content and presentation costs virtually nothing to reproduce.  Sure it will probably change the nature of the stuff that's produced, but the product has always been tailored to the means of payment when you're talking about commercial works.  For novels, you could conceivably have a situation where an author writes one work to prove that he/she is a promising, up-and-coming artist, then asks people to support his/her work, on a chapter-by-chapter basis if necessary.  The bottom line is that if there is a demand, people will be able to make the connection, and with more and more potential consumers and fewer and fewer intermediaries between the creator and consumer, even a minuscule offering from each of your patrons could be enough to get by on.  "Support from viewers like you" seems to work pretty decently for public TV (in the US), though they do also get government funding and corporate support which are two other possibilities for future compensation.

 
Re: The future is bull****
I buy water because tap water here tastes like rot and poison. :<

Come to Holland, because tap water here is actually more healthy then water in bottles :).

 

Offline iamzack

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Re: The future is bull****
I buy water because tap water here tastes like rot and poison. :<
A water purifier might work, not sure as to what degree of water contamination are we talking about..

I don't drink water often enough to make it worth it.
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline Sushi

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Re: The future is bull****
Is it though? A society is made of people, it requires people to exist, but is society truly an amalgamation of everyone in it and nothing else?

It's an interesting question, because, in order for a society to be a society, it needs a set of values, rules and beliefs that are unique to that mindset. Do people shape societies, or do societies shape people (the truth is probably a little bit of both). I personally consider a society an environment, not a physical one, but a mental one.

My point was that they can't really be separated, but your point that society means more than just a sum of people is well taken.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: The future is bull****
How are you supposed to value anything if its all free?  Say I want a motorcycle.  I need to work so many hours to earn the money to buy it.  That motorcycle now has the value of the effort I went into earning it plus whatever enjoyment I get out of using it.  Because I have invested time an effort to attain it I'm going to respect and take care of it.  You think it will have the same value if all I need to do is walk up to some replicator box in my living room and get a free motorcycle?  No. 

This doesn't quite work, because you completely gloss over why you would have wanted a motorcycle in the first place. You value it for that; ultimately all other value placed on motorcycles or anything else is value assigned of one's desire to have it. (Even things that you technically need to survive you still got because you want to survive.)

The system isn't going anywhere new, it's regressing to basic terms.
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Offline StarSlayer

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Re: The future is bull****
How are you supposed to value anything if its all free?  Say I want a motorcycle.  I need to work so many hours to earn the money to buy it.  That motorcycle now has the value of the effort I went into earning it plus whatever enjoyment I get out of using it.  Because I have invested time an effort to attain it I'm going to respect and take care of it.  You think it will have the same value if all I need to do is walk up to some replicator box in my living room and get a free motorcycle?  No. 

This doesn't quite work, because you completely gloss over why you would have wanted a motorcycle in the first place. You value it for that; ultimately all other value placed on motorcycles or anything else is value assigned of one's desire to have it. (Even things that you technically need to survive you still got because you want to survive.)

The system isn't going anywhere new, it's regressing to basic terms.

Huh?  The base want is the same in both cases.  The difference is in the effort to attain it.  If you bust your ass to earn something its going to represent a greater value.  You've achieved something.  In some cases that satisfaction is going to not even be relative to the items actually value.  You think Paris Hilton values her trust fund Bentley as much as 'Average Joe' who had to work to earn funds for a Toyota Camry?  If you completely remove the sense of accomplishment what's the point in life?
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: The future is bull****
That's my point. If you remove the artificial value that you've added to it via what it required to obtain, you're simply left with the value it has to you as practical. (Or in the case of the motorcycle, not-practical) object. We're back to pre-currency value measurements.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Re: The future is bull****
But we're not though, in a pre-currency system you are still trading value for value.  The Farmer barters grain to the Blacksmith for a new plow.  Now you're getting everything for free putting no effort into earning it.  How do you even understand the concept of value without effort? 
“Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world”

  

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: The future is bull****
Some of you may recall a topic in which I simplified and explained the basics of Marxist theory and the fundamentals of theoretical Communism...









...ahem...








...IT'S HERE, *****ES!  =)

Seriously now, Marx quite radically proposed that people labour in order to reproduce themselves (psychologically) through that labour in order to give meaning to their lives.  In it's depth, it's a theory that explains everything from labouring for your basic needs to the highest forms of art and science.  And it has nothing to do with currency.  In a Communist society, people labour for that very purpose having overturned the materialistic shackles of capitalism.  People still find value in the work of others because it has meaning rather than a finite value.  Forced artificial scarcity is a new term for a concept that's nearly 150 years old.  In a weirdly ironic way, paying for things that are - in a monetary sense - worthless is the very core ideal behind true Communism.

Required reading:  Grundrisse, Wage Labour and Capital
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: The future is bull****
I'd like to know how civilization would survive if you remove the motivation for basically doing anything of merit.

Ummm, why are we making Diaspora again? :D
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Offline Qent

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Re: The future is bull****
Maybe people who need an incentive to do anything would just die and those who don't would continue to improve themselves until they are all who are left?

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: The future is bull****
I tend to disagree with money being the biggest incentive anyway. Good old sex is still a bigger one in many many ways.
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Offline StarSlayer

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Re: The future is bull****
Its more fundamental then just a monetary value.  If you remove the cost of everything by making it free then I don't think that the concept of the commodity's value would exist and more importantly your personal value at being able to attain it.  To me the idea of earning something through personal effort seems intrinsic to the human experience.  On the other hand if their is no scarcity any effort you put into improving yourself is fundamentally a futile struggle because its never going to improve your station in life.  If you spend your days picking your nose instead of applying yourself in the end everything is going to be handed to you on a silver platter anyway.  Funny you should mention sex, I'd almost argue that this would go against the biological imperative.  Granted I'll admit my knowledge on the subject is layman's but if you go for the idea that we strive to succeed to ensure we reproduce and pass our genes.  If you remove the ability to achieve and stand apart from your other competition that goes against what's hard wired into your crotch.

Remember we are looking at this from the outside looking in.  We understand the effort it takes to earn something, so yeah getting it for free sounds snazzy.  I think it might be a different matter to exist in such an environment and never actually understood the cost required nor the reward for actually earning it.
“Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world”

 

Offline iamzack

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Re: The future is bull****
So if food became free, you'd get bored of it and stop eating?
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: The future is bull****
So if your shelter became free, you'd get bored of it and stop using it?

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: The future is bull****
Funny you should mention sex, I'd almost argue that this would go against the biological imperative.  Granted I'll admit my knowledge on the subject is layman's but if you go for the idea that we strive to succeed to ensure we reproduce and pass our genes.  If you remove the ability to achieve and stand apart from your other competition that goes against what's hard wired into your crotch.

But who says we have removed the ability to achieve? I can think of many ways you can achieve in a world where property has no monetary value.

1) Physical beauty - A good looking woman is still a good looking woman in a world without money, people will still value the way she looks. Women who aren't as beautiful will still wish they were as good looking.
2) Physical abilities - This one goes hand in hand with the above. It will be a while before we don't value a good football player or dancer.
3) Artistic ability - You might not pay for their work but that doesn't mean that you don't value the artist whose mp3s you download.

And that's just off the top of my head. The value of something becomes less due to the difficulty in producing it and more down the beauty of the item. In your example of the motorbike what would make your bike valuable is not the cost of the bike but how you riced it up. :D
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Offline Mikes

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Re: The future is bull****
No, the article was on Cracked.

The argument being made is that while you may be able to not buy bottled water or transplant ebooks, eventually you will be rendered digitally redundant, and what happens then?

This was one of my gripes with Richard Morgan's otherwise excellent books. They can stack you, they can copy you (otherwise multiple sleeving wouldn't be possible), and yet there's still any kind of demand for individual labor? (His last book sort of tackled it.) Get one ideal worker and sleeve them in a bunch of synths.

That won't happen. That's like saying "WHAT IF WE WERE FORCED TO USE BATTERIES FOR EVERYTHING?" This is why we also have government able to regulate things like tap water. The government, in theory, exists solely for our benefit. Why would it want to get rid of tap water and force us to pay x20000 more for water? It wouldn't, because we'd tell it that we don't want to. And you can always circumvent ebook DRM by taking a picture of the screen, whether a screen-shot or not. If you don't want it that badly, then you obviously don't care enough to complain, so there's no problem.

"Don't care enough to complain" is very dangerous line of thinking ... ; You can justify anything with it... and if you look at history and especially at totalitarian regimes for just a moment, then i guess all these oppressed people just didn't care for their freedom all that much? :coughs: Any amount of unhappyness and even outright rebellion hits a brickwall if the government or whatever instituation is the culprit has an adequate amount of "control".

In the case of DRM... why do you think company execs are having wet dreams about unique IDs on CPU's (which we already have - Intel anyways) coupled with a mandatory registration of your real life ID as a requirement to access the internet?

Funny you should mention sex, I'd almost argue that this would go against the biological imperative.  Granted I'll admit my knowledge on the subject is layman's but if you go for the idea that we strive to succeed to ensure we reproduce and pass our genes.  If you remove the ability to achieve and stand apart from your other competition that goes against what's hard wired into your crotch.

But who says we have removed the ability to achieve? I can think of many ways you can achieve in a world where property has no monetary value.

1) Physical beauty - A good looking woman is still a good looking woman in a world without money, people will still value the way she looks. Women who aren't as beautiful will still wish they were as good looking.
2) Physical abilities - This one goes hand in hand with the above. It will be a while before we don't value a good football player or dancer.
3) Artistic ability - You might not pay for their work but that doesn't mean that you don't value the artist whose mp3s you download.

And that's just off the top of my head. The value of something becomes less due to the difficulty in producing it and more down the beauty of the item. In your example of the motorbike what would make your bike valuable is not the cost of the bike but how you riced it up. :D

Exactly... furthermore... i would even argue that it is monetary value that dilutes and distorts actual achievement. We only use it as value measurement because it's easy and convenient...  but that leaves the fact that it is in no way accurate. The tragedy of the status quo is that we have become so used to valuing everything with money that we started to value other people by their monetary value as well... or worse, even our own achievements.

Why is money value not accurate? Because it's a binary equation. A "yes" "no" question. Can it be valued in money OR not. One should easily see how simply by valuing everything with money... you are easily overlooking or at least depreciating everything else that might matter: You know, like, environment, human rights, family, Happiness, healthcare, nutrition...  or some weak worthless concepts known as "moral values" and "integrity".

For anyone interested in the symbolic and diabolic nature of "money" and the effect the "binary" choice it presents us with has on your society i would highly recommend "Niklas Luhmann: Social Systems".

The irony of it all being that the basis of "economical rational thought"... the model of the "homo oeconomicus" is statistically proven rather the exception than the rule.

 
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 03:44:59 am by Mikes »

 

Offline swashmebuckle

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Re: The future is bull****
Guys, guys...you're all missing the real point of why the future will be bull****.  We still won't have ****ing flying cars.  The Jetsons lied to us.   :mad:
http://www.terrafugia.com/

Jetsons no, flying car yes ;7