[watsisname]

If you could read other people's thoughts, I'm not convinced you wouldn't mostly just hear random/silly/meaningless fragments of "sentences" anyway.  It'd probably be really annoying.

Come to think of it, it's really hard to even read my own thoughts.  The second I try I realize my thought process has changed.  GRRRRR, it's like F'in quantum mechanics all over again.

[S-99]

I don't want to read other's thoughts, and i certainly dont want mine read.

[Titan]

I don't want to read other's thoughts, and i certainly dont want mine read.

OK, just fess up. Where are the bodies?

[Polpolion]

This is pretty neat actually.

So if we can create arms that are controlled by thought, can we create a piece of hardware that will read/write thalamus output/input, hook it up to some kind of wireless communication device and have legitimate wireless telepathy? It'd require lots of dangerous surgery, but this way you'd be able to turn it off, too.

[General Battuta]

This is pretty neat actually.

So if we can create arms that are controlled by thought, can we create a piece of hardware that will read/write thalamus output/input, hook it up to some kind of wireless communication device and have legitimate wireless telepathy? It'd require lots of dangerous surgery, but this way you'd be able to turn it off, too.

That's what was suggested in the first post, yeah. Discussion of whether these twins in particular had developed special capabilities that an adult wouldn't have left it an open question back on the first page.

I'll stick to simple thought transmission as a definition of telepathy, rather than complete annihilation of ability to have individual experiences. (And possibly ability to have individual memory?)

Given that that hasn't happened here it looks like you don't have anything to worry about. They each clearly have individual experiences.

If you could read other people's thoughts, I'm not convinced you wouldn't mostly just hear random/silly/meaningless fragments of "sentences" anyway.  It'd probably be really annoying.

See, that's why this is exciting. It allows us to test that in at least a limited case.

[SpardaSon21]

I'm high-spectrum autistic (Asperger's Syndrome) with obsessive-compulsive tendencies.  My head is screwed up enough without other people's thoughts in it.  Heck, a telepath would probably go nuts trying to find anything worthwhile.

[MP-Ryan]

Well, if schizophrenia can exist, I'd say that was evidence that it was possible, and I mean true schizophrenia, two seperate personalities in the same mind, not the more common version of someone trying to escape into an alternate personality

Uhh, flip, that's not schizophrenia.  Not even close.  What you're describing is more akin to dissociative identity disorder [DSM IV], or multiple personality disorder [ICD] (which is incredibly rare... only a few documented cases actually exist).

Schizophrenia has nothing to do with personalities; it is characterized primarily by the manifestation of irrational beliefs, which frequently manifest as aural, and less-frequently, visual, hallucinations from an "other" (dead relative, famous people, God, imaginary person, etc.  The diagnostic criteria is oriented more around the irrational beliefs aspect than the hallucinations, though.

EDIT:  Sorry iamzack, I didn't see your post.

[Kolgena]

There's also this: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24012024/

and I'm very keen to follow her life story as well. Edit: nm, she's dead.


I'm wondering a bit how the whole thing works. If the thalamus is heavily shared by the two, it might mean that all brain resources could be utilized by both personalities. It seems it could be the case if they actually share visual fields. I wonder if they share anything else, like tactile input.

They're almost like a Core2Human.

[Mongoose]

I remember seeing a special about a set of female teenage conjoined twins who essentially shared one normal body (with some doubled-up organs) between two heads.  Each of the sisters has control over their own side of the body, so they have to coordinate activities like walking and driving.  There's apparently some anticipation of thought that goes on between them, but nothing as out there as accessing a shared portion of the brain.  Semantics aside, that's wild stuff.

(One does wonder how the Hensels will wind up handling more intimate relationships, though. )

[NGTM-1R]

Given that that hasn't happened here it looks like you don't have anything to worry about. They each clearly have individual experiences.

See, I don't buy that since we've already admitted they're sharing sensory input. They have individual personalities, which means I presume that they react differently to it, but if they're sharing sensory input that makes it unlikely they have different experiences.

[Nuke]

actually the brain is so adaptable it can eventually learn to use any hardware that happens to be in the way. take an electrode grid chip, or a bunch of them, and stick them on a developing brain (were talking babies here) then have them wired to a radio transceiver. the state of each electrode in the system would be packetized and broadcast. recieved packets are decoded and output on another set of electrodes to provide feedback.  their brains will eventually learn to interface with the hardware and might be able to communicate. it wont be like reading somones thoughts, but rather being able to pick up whats going on a small patch of the other person's brain. quadriplegics are already talking to computers with such devices, using them as mice, so we have output. input has been achieved as well, it has allowed us to take camera output (a few pixels worth at least) and feed it directly back into the occipital lobe on such a chip, and formerly blind human guinea pigs who have received the implant say it works. the next step is clear. so lets get some babies, cut open their skulls and start upgrading the hardware.

[General Battuta]

Given that that hasn't happened here it looks like you don't have anything to worry about. They each clearly have individual experiences.

See, I don't buy that since we've already admitted they're sharing sensory input. They have individual personalities, which means I presume that they react differently to it, but if they're sharing sensory input that makes it unlikely they have different experiences.

You're going to have a very hard time arguing that sensory input is homologous with experience. Sensory input is modified by personality factors and past knowledge to create experience.

Unless you think that a given sensory input (taste of banana) will produce the same experience in everyone on Earth?

[NGTM-1R]

You're going to have a very hard time arguing that sensory input is homologous with experience. Sensory input is modified by personality factors and past knowledge to create experience.

Unless you think that a given sensory input (taste of banana) will produce the same experience in everyone on Earth?

What we have here is a failure to grasp the definition.

(Also past knowledge would be more or less identical, yes? And they're twins so their personalities are likely very similar as well.)

[General Battuta]

You're going to have a very hard time arguing that sensory input is homologous with experience. Sensory input is modified by personality factors and past knowledge to create experience.

Unless you think that a given sensory input (taste of banana) will produce the same experience in everyone on Earth?

What we have here is a failure to grasp the definition.

(Also past knowledge would be more or less identical, yes? )

I definitely see some failures to grasp going on.

You sound confused. Maybe some empirical evidence will help.

The debate was of the angels-dancing-on-a-pin variety, as though science nerds had stumbled into a philosophy class. “I think it depends on whether they can develop their own personality,” opined one. “But then does that mean they are just one person with a very weird split personality disorder?” Added another: “If one is capable of thought that the other can’t interpret or won’t know about, then I’d say it’s two people. Otherwise I’d say it’s just one person with two functioning bodies.”

It’s safe to say no one in the twins’ family has any such doubts. The girls were distinct from the get-go, and they grow more so as they age. Krista is the larger and stronger. Tatiana, while smaller, is the work horse. Her heart does much of the pumping, her kidneys and liver do most of the filtering. “Krista is my bully. I think she always will be,” says Simms. “But [lately] Tati has taken a lot of the authority,” she adds. “ ‘If you’re going to be mean to me, I’m going to stop being nice.’ [Tati] is not as laid back as she was before. It’s a good thing.”

I think your attempted point is DOA.

[General Battuta]

In the meantime I think we can safely considered this freakout:

I'll stick to simple thought transmission as a definition of telepathy, rather than complete annihilation of ability to have individual experiences. (And possibly ability to have individual memory?)

handled.

[Liberator]

On the impetus for this discussion:
The girls seem to be sharing hardware in a way that allows them to somehow transmit thoughts to each other, if that connection were lost the shared thoughts would most likely go with it.  Honestly, I don't know if I'd put them through it.

On Telepathy:
The classic definition of voluntary(or not), direct mind to mind communication with no connecting hardware of any kind.  What is being discussed is more along the lines of a Hive Mind or Consensus(the governing "body" of the Edenists)

[General Battuta]

On Telepathy:
The classic definition of voluntary(or not), direct mind to mind communication with no connecting hardware of any kind.  What is being discussed is more along the lines of a Hive Mind or Consensus(the governing "body" of the Edenists)

That's as absurd as a telephone not being a telephone if there's any connecting hardware involved!

Here is a pretty good definition of telepathy:

Telepathy (from the Greek τηλε, tele meaning "distant" and πάθη, pathe meaning "affliction, experience"),[2] is the transfer of information on thoughts or feelings between individuals by means other than the "five classic senses"

Or another good one, from Merriam Webster

communication from one mind to another by extrasensory means

I think that's enough arguing about word choice. Unless you want to evoke supernatural, nonphysical phenomena this definitely qualifies; it does not (appear) to require the use of any form of sensory input as a symbolic representation.

[newman]

It's not wi-fi, they have a serial cable connection. So it's not really Jedi stuff. I'd say it was cool if it didn't mean a snowball's chance in hell for a normal life for the twins.

[General Battuta]

If you could put axon caps on the thalamic bridge neurons you could then separate them and get a wi-fi link. Would be interesting to see what latency would do.

[newman]

Bad ping. Your thoughts are so.. intermittent..