Author Topic: So I've been in touch with V (new FS3 plot tidbit)  (Read 19386 times)

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Offline headdie

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Re: So I've been in touch with V (new FS3 plot tidbit)
If it was just a case of the GTVA was running the economy badly I would have to agree.  but in this case there is also a charismatic, dare I say messiah like figure, who holds/held a respectable position (lets face it a Fleet admiral is pretty high in the scheme of things) with a lot of support, calling on Terrans to join him in his vision of a new terran home with the vibrancy and culture of Earth, presumably with a vibrant economy, jobs for all, free public health care and the rest of it.  In exchange all he is asking people to do is fight against a treaty with an alien species with a superior economy to the terrans who aren't sharing the wealth.  To top it all off his credibility is boosted by the GTVA's seeming inability to wipe out his little insurrectionist in a few weeks.

Messiah-like figure? Who?
Admiral Aken Bosch

Quote from: TrashMan link=topic=72481.msg1435649#msg1435649
And economy? True, the humans had a harder time recovering from the Great War than vasudans, but by the time of the Sol Gate opening that would have been ancient history. It practicly is by the time FS2 starts - the reconstruction period is over.
And economicly powerful Earth? Possibly, but I doubt it will have the power it had before the node collapse. Remember, Earth trived on export and many companies had their HQ there. With the node collapse, massive markets are suddenly gone. A large economic crisis is more than likely. Just think what would happen to the US if it were suddenly completely cut off from the rest of the world..


Quote
http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Neo-Terran_Front
Bosch's vision of Neo-Terra informs the ideology of his movement. With contact to Earth severed since the end of the Great War, Bosch imagined a new home world for the Terran race, a utopia that would restore the grandeur of the lost world. As the people of Earth once relied on Polaris to help them navigate the seas, the North Star would become the spiritual and political compass for Terrans of the new era. Bosch's message had a profound impact on the so-called "Lost Generation," born during the post-war Reconstruction. Bosch's message resonated with many people, largely because his pro-Terran ideology,

Most of the adult generation by the time of FS2 grew up and worked during reconstruction period and those sorts of memories last a lifetime ask any working class  British citizen over 25 about Margaret Thatcher and you will have a good clue what I am on about.  Throw into that the resentment the differences between the Vasudan and Terran economies which for 1 would highlight how badly the Terrans were handling things and secondly the fact that significant numbers of people would have thought the vasudans could have done more to help.

Now throw in a person who is literally promising heaven to the terran people, we are talking a world to rival Earth in grandeur, to do this would require a thriving economy which means jobs and wealth, to working class people who grew up in the reconstruction era which is basically a recession, this is the stuff heaven is made of, (these are also the people who build and crew your warships remember). 

Also remember that with people like Bosch appearance and promises are more important than fact, lets face it we all know each politician will screw us over on at least some of the promises they make that we find important yet we vote them in anyway, why? Because humans are creatures of hope, we like to hope that we will get what we want even if it is impossible.  So is Polaris being a rival of Earth possible, probably not inside a few generations, but Bosch, this visionary, is promising it and even without saying them, all the things that are implied that each person finds important.  The fact that He was an Admiral in charge of a fleet gives him credibility, throw in that his comparatively tiny fleet is holding out against the might of the GTVA, this gives him more credibility.

On the xenophobia against the Vasudans I think that came from the wording of NTF propaganda combined with what I said above and was a useful tool for NTF recruitment.
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Offline -Norbert-

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Re: So I've been in touch with V (new FS3 plot tidbit)
That was pretty much what I was getting at. The whole racism part was just to create a common enemy to unite against and to get a few more supporters. But the racists could never have pulled off a rebellion of that magnitude alone.

On the Sol side of the node the Vasudans were a some survivors without any economy of their own and too few to be seen as a credible threat to anything, which makes them very ill suited to become scapegoats or a common enemy.
And being all alone among billions of Humans, I'd guess the Vasudans would want to keep a low profile and try to avoid public attention.
Thus their impact on the political climate in Sol would be minimal at best.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: So I've been in touch with V (new FS3 plot tidbit)
Most of the adult generation by the time of FS2 grew up and worked during reconstruction period and those sorts of memories last a lifetime ask any working class  British citizen over 25 about Margaret Thatcher and you will have a good clue what I am on about.  Throw into that the resentment the differences between the Vasudan and Terran economies which for 1 would highlight how badly the Terrans were handling things and secondly the fact that significant numbers of people would have thought the vasudans could have done more to help.

I see your point..BUT....The Sol Portal would not be opened in this time period.
It would be opened several years after the events of FS2. The NTF has been crushed. The biggest anti-vasudan haters and separatists have been defeated. The reconstruction is further in the past, and less people who worked and grew during it would be found. And since the economic recovery, there would be less disatisfied people.

The ideal climate for the rebellion is over.


Quote
Now throw in a person who is literally promising heaven to the terran people, we are talking a world to rival Earth in grandeur, to do this would require a thriving economy which means jobs and wealth, to working class people who grew up in the reconstruction era which is basically a recession, this is the stuff heaven is made of, (these are also the people who build and crew your warships remember). 

Political figures always promise heaven. Bosch had charisma..but the time of Bosch and NTF is over.
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Offline -Norbert-

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Re: So I've been in touch with V (new FS3 plot tidbit)
Did I miss something?
Because I was under the impression we only analized the NTF rebellion and the reasons and conditions for it happening to show that something similar would NOT have happened in the Sol system. At least that was my reason for bringing that point up in the first place....

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: So I've been in touch with V (new FS3 plot tidbit)
Yes, but now we are discussing the possibility of another rebellion after contact with Sol is re-established.
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Offline -Norbert-

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Re: So I've been in touch with V (new FS3 plot tidbit)
Rebellion of the GTVA or Sol side?

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: So I've been in touch with V (new FS3 plot tidbit)
GTVA.  Sol is far more difficult to predict, as fearless is known.
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Offline -Norbert-

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Re: So I've been in touch with V (new FS3 plot tidbit)
But wouldn't a mass migration, or rather an attempted mass migration (who knows how Sol would react to that....) be more likely than any kind of uprising -> "The lost generation is returning home"?

Okay... and after writing this sentence I just though that this might be the exact reason for such a rebellion.
Many people want to go to Sol, but the GTVA won't allow it. Bam Rebellion.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: So I've been in touch with V (new FS3 plot tidbit)
Many people want to go to Sol, but the GTVA won't allow it. Bam Rebellion.

Somebody did a campaign about the GTVA being scared of that!  :nervous:

 

Offline Spoon

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Re: So I've been in touch with V (new FS3 plot tidbit)
Many people want to go to Sol, but the GTVA won't allow it. Bam Rebellion.

Somebody did a campaign about the GTVA being scared of that!  :nervous:
Oh, that sounds like fun. I wonder who did that  :p
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Offline -Norbert-

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Re: So I've been in touch with V (new FS3 plot tidbit)
Many people want to go to Sol, but the GTVA won't allow it. Bam Rebellion.

Somebody did a campaign about the GTVA being scared of that!  :nervous:
I didn't mean it the way WiH did it. There the GTVA fights against Sol, not against an internal rebellion (or at least not yet in part 1).

 

Offline Wobble73

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Re: So I've been in touch with V (new FS3 plot tidbit)
My Idea was when the GTVA returned to Sol, they found the human race there very paranoid and xenophobic, due to the fact that they think the blowing up of the node was the Vasudans idea to cut them off from the rest of the galaxy and stop them spreading and the fact that they had started to use tech from the parts of the Lucifer that survived. This makes them more Shivan in some ways.

I was thinking of making a small campaign which would use Terran/Shivan uglies, but then I suck at modding  :nervous:
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: So I've been in touch with V (new FS3 plot tidbit)
Why would they think that "cutting them off" was a vasudan idea? The Lucifer reactor blew up, how could the vasudans have planned for that? And how would that secure their dominance?

The loss of Sol is a big blow, but not nearly enough to stop the spread of terrans - they have many other colonies. and Vasuda was nuked, so vasudan dominance is not likely.
In the event of a bigger remaining shivan fleet, cutting off may even be a good idea, to save the human race from possible extinction.



And regarding mass migration..to Earth? Unlikely. Since it's the most densly populated planet in the GTVA, most people would logicly consider it a good place to visit and live, but would hardly throw rebellions over not being able to go there.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: So I've been in touch with V (new FS3 plot tidbit)
And regarding mass migration..to Earth? Unlikely. Since it's the most densly populated planet in the GTVA, most people would logicly consider it a good place to visit and live, but would hardly throw rebellions over not being able to go there.

They already threw a rebellion once over the chance to build a place even remotely like Earth. Having the real thing waiting? Got to be worse.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: So I've been in touch with V (new FS3 plot tidbit)
and Vasuda was nuked, so vasudan dominance is not likely.

So, basically, both races lost all meaningful interaction with their respective homeworlds.  That means that Terrans dominate how?  In case you forgot, Vasudans have many other colonies too.  And there's the little matter of being able to go toe-to-toe with the GTA for 14 years of warfare.  Vasudan dominance would, in all actuality, probably be just as likely as Terran.

As it so happens, we only really get a pilot's eye view of the whole thing, so we really don't even know how the political situation unfolded after FS1, except that Human splinter groups are apparently unhappy with the situation/are racist bastards.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: So I've been in touch with V (new FS3 plot tidbit)
And regarding mass migration..to Earth? Unlikely. Since it's the most densly populated planet in the GTVA, most people would logicly consider it a good place to visit and live, but would hardly throw rebellions over not being able to go there.

They already threw a rebellion once over the chance to build a place even remotely like Earth. Having the real thing waiting? Got to be worse.

And all the people who wanted a "new Earth" badly enough to rebel HAVE rebelled and were defeated.

Besides, population numbers is the issue here, not GTVA being assholes. There's a limit to how many people can live on Earth comfortably. As it is now, living space will be even more expensive in the future.
Most people will simply not have the means to move to Earth, or will be smart enough to know it's not the smartest idea. After all, there are lots of people who would like to move into the "big city", but can't or won't. I've yet to see a rebellion over it.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: So I've been in touch with V (new FS3 plot tidbit)
And regarding mass migration..to Earth? Unlikely. Since it's the most densly populated planet in the GTVA, most people would logicly consider it a good place to visit and live, but would hardly throw rebellions over not being able to go there.

They already threw a rebellion once over the chance to build a place even remotely like Earth. Having the real thing waiting? Got to be worse.

And all the people who wanted a "new Earth" badly enough to rebel HAVE rebelled and were defeated.

No, those in a specific area of space who rallied behind a specific leader in a specific movement were.

Quote
Besides, population numbers is the issue here, not GTVA being assholes. There's a limit to how many people can live on Earth comfortably. As it is now, living space will be even more expensive in the future.
Most people will simply not have the means to move to Earth, or will be smart enough to know it's not the smartest idea. After all, there are lots of people who would like to move into the "big city", but can't or won't. I've yet to see a rebellion over it.

Here in the US one of the biggest political problems is the violence associated with unwanted immigration. Same goes for Europe.

Happens.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: So I've been in touch with V (new FS3 plot tidbit)
Here in the US one of the biggest political problems is the violence associated with unwanted immigration. Same goes for Europe.

You're comparing immigration across land borders under own power to immigration via spaceships which even have a controllable chokepoint.

The GTVA and Sol ain't the Imperium of Man with giant ships where you could lose whole armies in the holds, so how on earth do you think effective immigration control isn't going to be possible?
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Re: So I've been in touch with V (new FS3 plot tidbit)
Well the US isn't that great a comparison because they're so useless when it comes to controlling their borders, but in the EU especially the major countries, the problem is not 'being able to stop them' but 'actually stopping' them.


Immigrants are good for a country.

Immigrants are not good for the feeling of security for small minded citizens (read; the general population).

Politicians always want some degree of immigration (if anything, immigration shows the success of a country), preferably controlled and preferably handled in a productive manner including integration.

The former is easy.
The latter is hard.

And the latter is where the problem always occurs, as long as movement is possible, there will always be immigration and emigration, it's just human nature.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: So I've been in touch with V (new FS3 plot tidbit)
Here in the US one of the biggest political problems is the violence associated with unwanted immigration. Same goes for Europe.

You're comparing immigration across land borders under own power to immigration via spaceships which even have a controllable chokepoint.

The GTVA and Sol ain't the Imperium of Man with giant ships where you could lose whole armies in the holds, so how on earth do you think effective immigration control isn't going to be possible?

I'm not. I'm arguing that when that desire for immigration exists but government control renders it impossible, civil unrest will result. And furthermore, I'm arguing that immigration might not be stopped, it just might not be liked - oh, wait, QD got there.

EDIT: come to think of it, even if immigration is totally forbidden, given the existence of any privately owned shipping I'd expect a lot of illegal transit anyway. An Argo is huge enough to lose an army in and people are corruptible. Even if all the shipping is state-controlled I'd still expect some, though the probabilities are reduced.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 12:16:17 pm by General Battuta »