[BengalTiger]

So with taking 300 M citizens as the upper limit, times 25 (more/less the amount of systems in the GTVA), gives us 7 500M, or 7.5 billion.

Modern day Earth has over 6.5 billion people, estimates are it'll reach 10. Then add another billion or so for all the colonies on the Moon, Mars, etc, and guess the Sol system outnumbers the rest of the GTVA by at least nearly 2:1.

But on the other hand, since the GTVA didn't establish any form of communication with Sol, that could be a sign things are going pretty bad on our side of the node...

Either way, this makes a campaign where the GTVA is getting a serious spanking from Sol plausible.

[NGTM-1R]

Yes. Capella was a densely populated system with, I believe, 300 million. Take it as a near to upper bound, multiply across the worlds in the GTVA.

Objection, facts not in evidence! We have no idea if Capella is upper edge or terribly industrialized. A lot of people have made assumptions along those lines for their campaigns to justify vast economic dislocation post-Capella, but there is nothing in canon to confirm or deny.

[General Battuta]

We know it's densely populated which I think it's safe to assume means it's at least on the upper quartile of the population distribution.

[NGTM-1R]

We know it's densely populated which I think it's safe to assume means it's at least on the upper quartile of the population distribution.

Densely populated is a relative term. In this case, all it has to mean is that "this is going to be a son of a ***** to evacuate."

[General Battuta]

Sure, but I think it provides enough of a substantial indicator to be used as the basis for reasoning within the constraints of 'whatever works for your campaign'.

[TrashMan]

Sol is definately going to have more infrastructure, because it has 300+ years of building behind it.

But with space travel being common, emigration from Earth to other system on a large scale is more than likely.
Also, critical infrastructure can be built fast with modern building methods and machinerey.

So, while a colony will never have the full majesty of Earth, it can grow into a full self-sufficient, industrious world in a relatively short time span. After all, the GTVA was perfectly able to manufacture destroyers and warships despite the loss of both Earth AND Vasuda.

A young colony in a early space travel period (let's say a moon or mars colony in 2100) cannot really compete with Earth, but as technology and ease of travel and construction progresses, so does the rate at which the gap closes increase.

The combined power of the GTVA can be rated easily in dozens of destroyers and hunderds of cruisers and corvettes. Will Sol really have a army of that size? Doubtful, especially since it doesn't have 30+ systems to defend, just one.
Even if Sol has all the necessary infrastructure, resources and logistics to pull it of, would they really build a far larger fleet than they need?

[QuantumDelta]

Maybe they've been waiting for the shivans to return, maybe they plan on conquering whatever they meet next time they spread from Sol, whatever.

Same goes for the pop estimates for capella, without a size of planet 'densely populated' doesn't mean much, if it's the size of mars that could really mean much less than battuta's estimate, if it's the size of neptune then it might mean billions upon billions.

Also; there's no reason to assume the ancients return would accommodate a military presence, we could simply find a recovering colony with some records etc, or a close-to-post-physical culture, etc.
Lots of room for variation.

[Angelus]

This "revelation" is a bit surprising for me, as i thought the Ancients were wiped out.
If this was planned in any form, there should have been dropped subtle hints in FS2 that there's a chance, that some Ancients survived.

But the quote in the OPs post, indicates hearsay. So i don't give much about it, until :V: officially confirmes. Which :V: wont do.



Back when FS1 was released, the Computer magazines here, always compared FS with B5, which seemed heavily inspired by the show.
If :V: was inspired by B5 and the Shadow/ Vorlon conflict, then we'd have Shivan / Ancients war, with inverse roles, e.g. the Ancients play the role of the Shadows, which vanished off the radar for 1000 years and then to return to spread chaos.
In FS, the Ancients would return to help fight the Shivans. Considering that according to FS2 the ancients were wiped out, i assume this idea was dropped.
Just theories.

[QuantumDelta]

Yea no, just, no.
FS and B5 are nothing alike and B5 is just bad.
Please keep them as far from eachother as possible.

[Angelus]

Yea no, just, no.
FS and B5 are nothing alike and B5 is just bad.
Please keep them as far from eachother as possible.

B5 bad??? B5 is awesome.

[-Norbert-]

While I too think B5 is great, I have to agree with QuantumDelta on his other point. FS2 and Babylon 5 are completely different.
And the Ancients are nothing like any of the first ones. If anything they are more like one of the younger races that was wiped out by the Shadows (remember Centauri, Minbari and Drakh are much older than Humans, Narns and many of the Leage).

So the ancients were supposed to be in FS3. Does that really mean living ancients? Maybe they were just to be in it, in the sense of some artifact or knowledge of them being found.
In a sense the ancients were an integral and important part of FS2 too. After all the ancient's knowledge was the reason for Bosch to start his rebellion and I don't think I have to mention how important the Knossos was for the FS2 storyline, right? Same goes for FS1, since without the ancient's knowledge it's unlikely that Humans and Vasudans would have survived that war.

[castor]

B5 bad??? B5 is awesome.

B5 is awesome.

B5 is awesome.

B5 is awesome.

B5 is awesome.

B5 is awesome.

There. Should be enough to counter the derailing effect.

[Bob-san]

Can we really discount foreign contact in Sol? There's a question of what happened to Vasudans in Sol for the past 40+ years (life-span & political position questions). The 14 Years War made it so that, even in the GTVA, there was racial tension between Humans & Vasudans--who had been working together for so long to ensure joint survival. What could well happen is that the NTF was just the tip of the revolution iceburg; I doubt that Vasudans would survive for long in Sol. Instead, you now have a few dozen or a few hundred guinea pigs. Sol & GTVA have contact and suddenly this slowly strengthening alliance shatters and the pieces have to be picked up.

Think of it from a military standpoint.

The fmr. GTA (Sol) worked with Vasudans for a few years following a gigantic war. Then they had no contact for 40+ years. Post-war sentiment survives without more information.
The GTvA worked with Vasudans every year following a gigantic war. There was a rebellion that was crushed. Post-war sentiment is lessened by experience, but extremists survive.
The GtVA worked with Terrans every year following a gigantic war. There was a rebellion pushing for their destruction, which was crushed. Post-war sentiment is lessened by experience.

Suppose that Sol demands Terran cooperation; most Terrans abandon the GTVA to join Sol. Now you have the NTF times ten in population and the possibility of a military to back that up. It's only a matter of time till the GTVA crumbles and the remnants strive to protect & promote Vasudans. Then it's an unbalanced 14 Years War all over again and--guess what? The Terrans win.

[-Norbert-]

I don't think racism against the Vasudans alone could have been enogh for the NTF rebellion.
Of course there were those, but the NTF also contained those that were sucked up in the idea of Neo-Terra. There must have been others who joined "not out of hate for Vasudans, but out of love for Humanity" as Bosch put it in his diary.
Also the Vasudans came out of the great war with a stronger economy. And if you are the poor one it's easy to despise and hate the richer ones. Rich folk always make a good scapegoat for wannabe dictators when there are enough poor folk around.

In Sol the Vasudans were simply too few to be blamed for anything (maybe a few dozens among billions of Humans) and since they were in the cradle of mankind, there was no need for something like Neo-Terra.

[Mongoose]

Yeah, I'd assume that about the only Vasudans in Sol at the time of the node collapse would have been scientists/engineers, diplomats, and some military brass.  And Epsilon wing too, of course.

[headdie]

I don't think racism against the Vasudans alone could have been enogh for the NTF rebellion.
Of course there were those, but the NTF also contained those that were sucked up in the idea of Neo-Terra. There must have been others who joined "not out of hate for Vasudans, but out of love for Humanity" as Bosch put it in his diary.
Also the Vasudans came out of the great war with a stronger economy. And if you are the poor one it's easy to despise and hate the richer ones. Rich folk always make a good scapegoat for wannabe dictators when there are enough poor folk around.

In Sol the Vasudans were simply too few to be blamed for anything (maybe a few dozens among billions of Humans) and since they were in the cradle of mankind, there was no need for something like Neo-Terra.

Yeah, I'd assume that about the only Vasudans in Sol at the time of the node collapse would have been scientists/engineers, diplomats, and some military brass.  And Epsilon wing too, of course.

It doesn't stop the ignorant in sol from blaming that small group of vasudans for things going wrong, possibly even the sol node.  You have to remember that until the Shivans showed up there was a 14 year war going off and even with the great war's outbreak there was the HoL war, that's a lot of hatred and prejudice against the vasudans and as a species we dont let go of hate and prejudice quickly or easily so that small group could find themselves in a lot of danger.

and on the NTF with the vasudan economy recovering faster than the Terrans that has in the past been enough for terrans to hate each other very easily (example the Jews in Nazi  Germany in the run up to the second world war) so an alien spieces what the average terran cant understand has no hope.

[TrashMan]

*SNIP* .. cause I don't like long quotes

Again, don't see it happening. There would be very few vasudans in Sol, so most people wouldn't even care. Heck, mot people in Sol would never even see them during their lifetime. Far from eyes, far from mind, as the old saying goes.
Besides, Sol would have other, far more pressing issues to deal with.

And I really don't see people betraying the GTVA en masse. Why would they? If it does something horrible, then maybe. But again - why?

[headdie]

And I really don't see people betraying the GTVA en masse. Why would they? If it does something horrible, then maybe. But again - why?

If it was just a case of the GTVA was running the economy badly I would have to agree.  but in this case there is also a charismatic, dare I say messiah like figure, who holds/held a respectable position (lets face it a Fleet admiral is pretty high in the scheme of things) with a lot of support, calling on Terrans to join him in his vision of a new terran home with the vibrancy and culture of Earth, presumably with a vibrant economy, jobs for all, free public health care and the rest of it.  In exchange all he is asking people to do is fight against a treaty with an alien species with a superior economy to the terrans who aren't sharing the wealth.  To top it all off his credibility is boosted by the GTVA's seeming inability to wipe out his little insurrectionist in a few weeks.

[-Norbert-]

And I really don't see people betraying the GTVA en masse.

But they already did. That was the NTF rebellion.

I just brought up what I believe (based on what canon information I know) to be the reasons behind the people joining in the rebellion to flash out the contrast to the situation in Sol.

[TrashMan]

If it was just a case of the GTVA was running the economy badly I would have to agree.  but in this case there is also a charismatic, dare I say messiah like figure, who holds/held a respectable position (lets face it a Fleet admiral is pretty high in the scheme of things) with a lot of support, calling on Terrans to join him in his vision of a new terran home with the vibrancy and culture of Earth, presumably with a vibrant economy, jobs for all, free public health care and the rest of it.  In exchange all he is asking people to do is fight against a treaty with an alien species with a superior economy to the terrans who aren't sharing the wealth.  To top it all off his credibility is boosted by the GTVA's seeming inability to wipe out his little insurrectionist in a few weeks.

Messiah-like figure? Who?

And economy? True, the humans had a harder time recovering from the Great War than vasudans, but by the time of the Sol Gate opening that would have been ancient history. It practicly is by the time FS2 starts - the reconstruction period is over.
And economicly powerful Earth? Possibly, but I doubt it will have the power it had before the node collapse. Remember, Earth trived on export and many companies had their HQ there. With the node collapse, massive markets are suddenly gone. A large economic crisis is more than likely. Just think what would happen to the US if it were suddenly completely cut off from the rest of the world..