[TrashMan]

If I cumulated all the time I spent lagging because of tile-mapped ships, I would have learnt to UV already.

UV mapping a fighter? Easy.

Unwarapping a capital ship? Takes time.

Making a custom texture for it? Takes even longer.

Besides, there are ways of optimizing even with tile mapping (smart selection and use of textures). But I find on capship a combination of both is efficient. 2-4 large base textures for the basic hull plating and stuff, and 1 or 2 for the details.

[Thaeris]

You know, I'd say that although it might have taken some time, all of Stellar Assault's capital ships are UV mapped, and they're that much better because of that fact.

[General Battuta]

You know, I'd say that although it might have taken some time, all of Stellar Assault's capital ships are UV mapped, and they're that much better because of that fact.

Yes. Seriously. The SAFSO capships look clean and gorgeous because Quanto did such a pro job UVMapping them.

Absolutely worth it.

[Hades]

Besides, there are ways of optimizing even with tile mapping (smart selection and use of textures).

* Had-- looks at the Typhon

When are you gonna start using that

[Rico]

Reskining UVed ships is more difficult though.
Hybrids are not really a good idea, since they're neither as good looking as UVed ones, nor as easy to reskin as tiled ones.

if you are lacking in any memorable skills as a texture artist, then yes, reskinning properly uvmapped ships is more difficult. Tile mapping shouldnt ever be used anymore.

People can texture their ships how they want, what right do you have to dictate how a model is made?
Tbh I agree with Trashman, tiling mixed with UV is both easier and looks as good as full UV if done right. At the end of the day its upto the creator, he's putting his TIME and effort into it, he can do so how he feels like.

[General Battuta]

Reskining UVed ships is more difficult though.
Hybrids are not really a good idea, since they're neither as good looking as UVed ones, nor as easy to reskin as tiled ones.

if you are lacking in any memorable skills as a texture artist, then yes, reskinning properly uvmapped ships is more difficult. Tile mapping shouldnt ever be used anymore.

People can texture their ships how they want, what right do you have to dictate how a model is made?
Tbh I agree with Trashman, tiling mixed with UV is both easier and looks as good as full UV if done right. At the end of the day its upto the creator, he's putting his TIME and effort into it, he can do so how he feels like.

The increased texture count associated with tiling can be really bad for the engine. Witness Steve-O's ships.

UV is the way to go.

[Commander Zane]

The increased texture count associated with tiling can be really bad for the engine. Witness Steve-O's ships.

*Twitches*

The horror...but oh so beautiful...

[Hades]

There's no tiling that can be done that looks as good as that.

Tbh I agree with Trashman, tiling mixed with UV is both easier and looks as good as full UV if done right.

Oh please, post an example that looks as good as that shot above.

(Note: VA says the gray parts on the top and that ring on the neck are not finished)

[Droid803]

lvlshot plz

also: time/effort vs quality argument
will go nowhere.

Oh please, post an example that looks as good as that shot above.

Any of Steve-O's ships look pretty close, lagging the **** out of everyone aside.

[Hades]

Yeah, I don't think so. The texturing on steve-o's ships - or at least capitals - is atrocious. It's messy, almost doesn't go together, and hides any of the detail these models actually have.

[pecenipicek]

and let us not mention the fact what atrocious beasts they are from the modelling side -.-

[Commander Zane]

Framerate-wise, no, but aesthetically, they're very pleasing.

[TrashMan]

Let me explain my situation a bit more.
Normally I only got a crappy laptop to work with. It can't even run 3D max, so I can't UV map on it. I can run TS and I can work with it, but only on models that aren't too complex.

Friday afternoon, Saturday and Sunday - during this period I work on my mean machine. During this time I can work on all the complex stuff...and play games. That's it, when I'm not too busy with other stuff that pops up over the weekends - from watching over my sisters kids, to choir rehersals and other miscalaneus stuff that eats at my time.

Even if I had access to my powerful PC all days of the week, there are many things I want to do, and many things I have to do. Work, sleep, keeping my social life from flatlining and all the OTHER projects. I have stories I want to finish writing, AMVs I had planned for months, other mods and other games and a ****load of other stuff that's on the backburner and will probably never get done at this rate.
And I'm just one guy..I don't have a whole large team behind me, so I don't have the luxury of wasting months on just one ship, because no one will be doing the other stuff for me.

UV map + tile mapping can achieve a effect similar to that Hades image.
Not as varried as that, but I imagine it would end up sharper and crisper. Give me a texture artists to make custom tile textures, and even a tiled ship can end up looking decent. As it stands, the result reflects what one has to work with. Decent textures and smart use of them can gave you a good result. Not perfect, but good enough.

[MatthTheGeek]

Cool story bro.

You should consider stopping to lie to yourself and accept the undeniable fact that tiling sucks.

[General Battuta]

Cool story bro.

You should consider stopping to lie to yourself and accept the undeniable fact that tiling sucks.

This post was unacceptable. I disagree with Trashman's method, but I understand why he uses it. You don't get to accuse him of lying.

And yeah, Hades is right; Steve-O's original ships look nowhere near as good as UVMapped versions.

[TrashMan]

You should consider stopping to lie to yourself and accept the undeniable fact that tiling sucks.

Tell that to the Orion.

As I said - I'll probably used a mix of methods. And if someone doesn't like that...tough.

[MatthTheGeek]

I'll gladly tell that to the Orion. It would definitely benefit from a good re-UV.

[Nyctaeus]

Dude, you're obdurate as hell. If Trashman wants to tilemap his ships, he's free to do it. If you want to use his ships somewhere, find someone who can reUVmapp ships. This is not a problem. To uvmapping you need also good texture artist, melding a few mediavps textures are not a good idea. Wastage of time, and also it will be harder to modification. Someone might don't like dedicated textures or uvmapped textures won't fit to his standards [that's why I can't use Solaris -___-]. Good tilemaping can looks almost as good as uvmapping [Hecate, Oriom, Zagreus HTL] and it makes model easier to alter for modders.

Trashman, please make a tilemapping or a hybrid with predominance of tilemapped textures. You'll make my [and other modders] lifes easier .

[Galemp]

Let's try to steer this discussion away from personal remarks, shall we?

I believe that in the MediaVPs, there is some merit for both. Certainly, with talent and time investment, a fully UV mapped ship is superior--compare the Aten, the Hatshepsut, the Hades, heck even the Fenris, to the high-poly Orion or Hecate in terms of beauty and efficiency. For the worst example, see the Mjolnir.

A hybrid approach is also acceptable sometimes--the Ravana looks excellent due to the high quality of its individual tilemapped textures, and the animated glowmap is only possible because the animated UV texture is fairly small.

Creating a new, high-poly ship and tilemapping it is discouraged, however, from a quality and an efficiency standpoint. If you're having difficulty with painting textures, you could do what I did with the Colossus--apply tile maps, unwrap the UVs, then bake the Ambient Occlusion map onto it and tweak the textures in Photoshop/GIMP afterwards.

[The E]

Way I see it, there are places were texture tiling really works well, and others where UV mapping is better.

Tiling has a few advantages: 1. Texture size can be low. Which means that rendering them is comparatively cheap.
2. Tilemaps can be edited without having to look at the actual model. If the modeller was clever about it, it won't be a big effort to make it look good.

Disadvantages are:
1. Using tiled textures means you have to use several different textures to achieve a good, varied look. Even given that tilemaps are, on average, smaller than comparable UVs in terms of resolution, using lots of textures is still not a good idea.
2. Effects like baked ambient occlusion are impossible.
3. It is impossible to highlight details on a model without increasing the texture count.

UV maps, on the other hand, have these advantages:
1. Baking effects, like the aforementioned ambient occlusion, are possible
2. Low texture counts. With the way the FSO engine works, using as few textures as possible helps keep performance high. As a rule of thumb, for every texture slot in the model, the engine needs to do one render pass. Given that every texture slot on the model can effectively mean 4 textures (diffuse, glow, shine and normal maps), keepig the effective total down is a good thing, as it keeps texture swapping to a minimum.
I refer you to this: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=72780.msg1437359#msg1437359
3. It is easy to highlight model regions using texture details.

Disadvantages:
1. They take more effort to edit.
2. In some scenarios, the maps will look worse in terms of apparent resolution.


All in all, as far as I am concerned, the benefits of having a proper UV far outweigh the negative aspects. That, however, does not mean that UVs are always superior; there are cases where a good tilemap is a cheap way of getting a model to look good.