[Trivial Psychic]

A simple fact which dictates that none of the craft used in the game are 2-seater... you never get any chatter or reports from your back-seater... except in that outtake from "Into the Lion's Den". 

[Black Wolf]

Yeah, I gotta come down on the single seat side, intro notwithstanding. Just seems like if there were lots of copilots everywhere, there'd've been some mention of them along the way, and the "GTB" from the intro gives me the wiggle room I need to justify it to myself as not breaking canon .

2 seater GTB variant with the intro texture would be great, but I'd personally prefer single as the default.

And yeah, I'm aware there's something of a double standard for double seater bombers. I have no good answer for it either - single just seems right in this case.

[-Sara-]

Since there's so much question for a single seat, I'll see to it that a one-seater excists too. If need be there can be playing around with where to place the seat and such until it looks good. Remember I'm in this too, and will likely be texturing it also. I'll make sure both variants excist, maybe swapping guns and missiles like the intro fighter to make a pre-Athena strike bomber with a larger bombing capacity.  Everyone happy again? 

[Zacam]

Canon Facts: FS1 Intro does not show a second Pilot in Lt. Ash's fighter (0:39-0:42). At the 0:55-1:00 mark however, is the reason why it can be argued that there -could- be one, but I'd also argue that it would probably be a tight fit. (What -I- see are mechanical bits possibly for the life support system or the ability for an ejection system propulsion, but that's not verifiable by Canon either).

Further: tech_tpilot.ani/cb_tpilot.ani (frames 119- 150) in Original or Port, clearly show only ONE pilot being in place in the outlined shape of an Apollo fighter. Suggesting that it is a single seater.

Further Fact:

+Description: Original space superiority fighter of the GTA fleet.  Highly versatile, it often doubles as an assault fighter.  Low weapon compatibility.
$end_multi_text
+Tech Description:
The Apollo is the most common GTA fighter.  It is highly versatile and can perform multiple roles, including space superiority, interception and assault.
$end_multi_text

Does not negate the possibility of there being a multi-seater available for any of those "versatile" roles the Apollo is capable of performing, especially since the Ash variant is visually different from what we got in game. (Which isn't entirely fair to the in-game model because the video one was MADE for video, not in-game.) We can now make the video version the in-game version, but still nothing supports there being two Pilots.

I'm not opposed to -seeing- it as a two seater. And I don't think it's too rigid to consider that fighters = 1 seat, bombers = 2, but it is rigid to expect that there are never any exceptions. Up until the F15 (as noted earlier) 2 seat fighters for the US Military (outside of potentially basic training) were rare, but the F-15 (being like the Apollo) is a versatile craft and many 2-seat arrangements have flown tactical sorties. The Apollo can be no better or worse for having the same mechanic applied to it, especially given how highly valued and praised it is during the beginning of the FS1 Campaign. But to my mind, a 2-seater is a "Variant" rather like a D.H. model (especially as it's rumored or supported that originally intended it as a Bomber, which I'm not able to verify).


**Edit: (non-colored to show separation of Position vs Person here): Dog piling before results are seen is really something that should stop. Debate, that's fine. Aesthetic points discussed, fine. But there has been a bit much of the dog-piling on modelers ideas and stances lately that makes me think that an official statement of "Take a nice deep breath and come back to it later, it's not going anywhere" is in order. Because it's just highly discouraging to the modeler and we have damn few of those as it is. We -need- the artistic and creative, which means that yes, there are going to be differences. We can either try a more balanced way of dealing with that, or we can end up with nobody working on anything because they don't want to deal with the blatant exposure and ensuing hostilities.

[Hades]

A simple fact which dictates that none of the craft used in the game are 2-seater... you never get any chatter or reports from your back-seater... except in that outtake from "Into the Lion's Den". 

Alpha 1 never speaks a single line, so I guess that dictates that that Alpha 1 never existed either. Wouldn't bombers also have a single pilot by this logic, a well?

One thing I must ask all of you, why does this matter a single damn bit if there's a co-pilot? You'll likely never see him up close, same as you'd likely never see the pilot up close, and I've considered quitting, because this isn't the only time people nitpicked something that doesn't need nitpicking. It's just an extra pilot you'll likely never notice outside of F3.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not rage quitting over constructive criticism or anything. I'm close to rage quitting over the bull**** people get angry around here about and will get angry about. It's not something that I want to have to deal with. I don't model for you, I model for myself. I model for fun, I model to see ships how I've wanted to see them in-game, and if something so little as a second pilot causes a fuss, then I'm sure there's something else equally insignificant you'll all find to whine about it, like 'there's one extra window sadface'.

[Rga_Noris]

I have to agree with Hades a bit. It is this sort of response that makes modellers want to keep everything until a near completed state. Once again, I will point to the Cain. Everyone was all tears and *****ing over the smallest things. Holding until it until release avoids the heart ache, and the community tends to cease the whining if you give them something shiny.

[Thaeris]

I don't know what you're on about here, Zacam, as:

Canon Facts: FS1 Intro does not show a second Pilot in Lt. Ash's fighter (0:39-0:42). At the 0:55-1:00 mark however, is the reason why it can be argued that there -could- be one, but I'd also argue that it would probably be a tight fit. (What -I- see are mechanical bits possibly for the life support system or the ability for an ejection system propulsion, but that's not verifiable by Canon either).

...There is certainly a second seat back there, complete with an F-4esque full control panel back there. And there's the blood stain (probably from a handprint) on the rear canopy. Furthermore, you can see a figure leaning to the side nearest the camera on the flyby of the Apollo. Visibility wouldn't be good back there, but the WSO doesn't necessarily need to see the outside to operate the sensors. I cannot account for the tech room animation, as I've not covered that one enough (it also uses the in-game model, I believe, NOT the enhanced cutscene model). But in any sense, I think you might need to take another look at the intro cutscene.

[Zacam]

Thaeris, I have been over it for over 4 hours before making that post. Frame by Frame. I'm pretty certain of what I'm speaking about.

[Hades]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ-xcgBL1mY&feature=player_detailpage#t=58s Actually, if you look pretty closely, you can see the co-pilot, but he's in a rather awkward-looking position.

[rscaper1070]

Yeah he's there. You can see his hand on his leg in this picture. Forgive my crappy Paint writing skills.



Having both variants in game would be a win IMHO.

[Black Wolf]

Also, I think he's mentioned in the ref bible, though I'm working from (notoriously shoddy) memory here.

[Rga_Noris]

Well, MjnMixael had the perfect response: I do not like the two seater so I will make a one seater version myself. I would even place a bet that he will let others download it.

[-Sara-]

Since there's so much question for a single seat, I'll see to it that a one-seater excists too. If need be there can be playing around with where to place the seat and such until it looks good. Remember I'm in this too, and will likely be texturing it also. I'll make sure both variants excist, maybe swapping guns and missiles like the intro fighter to make a pre-Athena strike bomber with a larger bombing capacity.  Everyone happy again? 

[Jeff Vader]

Yes. Please, both variants will already be appearing so everyone can pick their favourite and be happy.

Unless someone wants an n-seater, with n > 2.

[Black Wolf]

GTF Tarago?

[Rga_Noris]

I would actually like a 47 seat "flying space theater" version, complete with a consession stand, ticket booth, billboard, and 3D glasses.

[Mongoose]

That's already in the Ursa.

[-Sara-]

A clowncar variant will be released around christmas. It offers seats for 5 people, or 15 clowns.

[Trivial Psychic]

I would actually like a 47 seat "flying space theater" version, complete with a consession stand, ticket booth, billboard, and 3D glasses.

We already have a flying space theater complex,... its owned by Cinneplex, and its called, The Colossus.

[X3N0-Life-Form]

A clowncar variant will be released around christmas. It offers seats for 5 people, or 15 clowns.

Hmm, I'd see that used in the next JAD