[Snail]

Look guys. If you want to think of Shivans as mindless bugs attacking everything that moves, feel free, I just think they're a bit more intelligent than that.

I have no idea how you draw that conclusion from my sum postings on the subject. Or even the original ones.

Shivans attacking things for the lulz.

[NGTM-1R]

Shivans attacking things for the lulz.

Yes, because bugs do things for the lulz instead of as response to fairly simple biological imperatives. Clearly.

Oh wait.

[Snail]

Shivans attacking things for the lulz.

Yes, because bugs do things for the lulz instead of as response to fairly simple biological imperatives. Clearly.

Oh wait.

You know what I mean.

[NGTM-1R]

You know what I mean.

No, I honestly don't, and that should be pretty clear from my posting afterwards.

EDIT: And to be fair, maybe you don't know what I mean either. "For the lulz" is pretty much as valid a motive for the Shivans to have done anything, including everything in both games, as any other, and reflects a belief on my part that assigning motives for any Shivan action beyond the purely tactical scale in a single engagement is not possible given what we know. I tossed out plenty of reasons why the Lucifer might have been there that have nothing to do with them having inside information on Omega wing. (I'll add another: the Shivans are responding to your attack on the Zenith and see a breakout attempt in progress, they have no real interest in stopping the operation in and of itself, only what it looks like.) But in the end, "for the lulz" remains as valid as any of them.

I do think your proposition that the Shivans are somehow aware of these things is weaker, because there's multiple ways of explaining it that do not require some form of Shivan knowledge of the event and there's pretty much nothing that says the Shivans are remotely interested in acquiring or using knowledge about Terrans and Vasudans. It could still be valid, but it is less likely than the alternative.

[Buckshee Rounds]

If I understand you right NGTM (which is an unsure bet at best) then you're saying that the Shivans are purely instictive in nature like a group of ants? I'm not sure how far you can take that though. I mean how far can pure instict go in relation to running a spaceborne armada? Shoot this shoot that yeah, but running a spacecraft with all the technicality that involves??? We know the Shivans have comparable ship systems to Terrans/Vasudans, such as Engines, Weapons, Sensors etc. and that they have electronics. I just can't see that a species that isn't at least partially sentient would be able to do everything the Shivans do.

Unless I missed your point completely.

[NGTM-1R]

If I understand you right NGTM (which is an unsure bet at best) then you're saying that the Shivans are purely instictive in nature like a group of ants? I'm not sure how far you can take that though. I mean how far can pure instict go in relation to running a spaceborne armada? Shoot this shoot that yeah, but running a spacecraft with all the technicality that involves??? We know the Shivans have comparable ship systems to Terrans/Vasudans, such as Engines, Weapons, Sensors etc. and that they have electronics. I just can't see that a species that isn't at least partially sentient would be able to do everything the Shivans do.

Unless I missed your point completely.

I don't think the Shivans operate on instinct at all. (Again the words of Heinlein, any race that can build spacecraft is not stupid.)

I simply think that trying to ascribe a correct motive to why they do anything where the decision wasn't made in front of the player by people (ships, really) the player could see isn't possible with what we know about them. There are theories that make less sense than the average, but there are none that arrive at a correct answer.

[Drogoth]

It may not be outright stated, but unless the Shivans were actually plotting a Xanatos Gambit involving the possible capture of the Taranis(putting beacons on it just in case?), I think it's a little unreasonable to assume the Shivans did not then have the subspace technology/expertise to track large ships just as the Ancients did 8000 years prior.

IIRC, subspace tracking requires one to be there while a ship jumps out. You have to have a sensor/scanner/ship in the area.

It is possible there were shivan ship on the Ribos side of the node that tracked the transport hauling the Teranis.

Perhaps, but also let us remember the Shivans subspace tracking MAY be far superior to the GTVA's, and not subject to the same limitations. Conversely, it could be inferior, but I find that unlikely.


As for this argument over 'for the lulz', NGM is definitely right. We don't know why the shivans are xenophobic maniacs we just know that they are. Maybe they evolved on a planet where the only possibility of survival was to crush anything approaching your intelligence, and thus by definition, a potential threat.

Or maybe our use of subsace is bad for them (cus of their 'sensitivity')

Or maybe they are megalomaniacs and just do it 'for the lulz'. We can't know, we don't know, but all theories are just as valid.

[TrashMan]

Perhaps, but also let us remember the Shivans subspace tracking MAY be far superior to the GTVA's, and not subject to the same limitations. Conversely, it could be inferior, but I find that unlikely.

The only limitation is a hard one..a basic, logical one if you wish.

You cannot percive sensory input, without having a sensory device present. It's a limitation on the most fundamental level possible.

[Kie99]

I remember when I first played The Great Hunt, it had taken me about 50 goes to beat Clash of the Titans (I was about 9, hadn't clocked on that you had to take out bombers, sent my fighters to attack the Tantalus), I was half expecting the Lucifer to turn round and destroy the Bastion with it's flux cannons.

[Drogoth]

Perhaps, but also let us remember the Shivans subspace tracking MAY be far superior to the GTVA's, and not subject to the same limitations. Conversely, it could be inferior, but I find that unlikely.

The only limitation is a hard one..a basic, logical one if you wish.

You cannot percive sensory input, without having a sensory device present. It's a limitation on the most fundamental level possible.

Yeah but who's to say the Shivan's don't have tech that would allow them to track jumps system wide? The shivans need not have the hardware in the 'field of engagement' to track that kind of thing, as such it may not be subject to the same limitations as ours, in so far as range is involved.

[NGTM-1R]

At the very least, if they've got it, they've probably got it better than the GTVA. Shivan fighters in the Nebula are consistently unaffected by their environment, suggesting better sensors.

[Drogoth]

At the very least, if they've got it, they've probably got it better than the GTVA. Shivan fighters in the Nebula are consistently unaffected by their environment, suggesting better sensors.

Exactly

[TrashMan]

Perhaps, but also let us remember the Shivans subspace tracking MAY be far superior to the GTVA's, and not subject to the same limitations. Conversely, it could be inferior, but I find that unlikely.

The only limitation is a hard one..a basic, logical one if you wish.

You cannot percive sensory input, without having a sensory device present. It's a limitation on the most fundamental level possible.

Yeah but who's to say the Shivan's don't have tech that would allow them to track jumps system wide? The shivans need not have the hardware in the 'field of engagement' to track that kind of thing, as such it may not be subject to the same limitations as ours, in so far as range is involved.

That's exactly what I meant. Supposedly they didn't have any more ships in the system in which Taranis was captures.

BUT, they did have ships in Ribos, which is where the transport hauling the Taranis jumped too.


But even then, I suspect the shivans had to have had ships close. The resolution of any sensory input has a tendency to downgrade with distance.

[Buckshee Rounds]

Since we're way off topic now: what ever happened to the NTC Alexandria?

[MatthTheGeek]

Wasn't it the ship which Snipes was fleeing in the SOC Loop, just before Into The Lion's Den ?

[TrashMan]

YEs.

Anbd the asnwer - no one knows.

[Buckshee Rounds]

In fact what happened to all those other warships the GTVA left behind?

[Snail]

In fact what happened to all those other warships the GTVA left behind?

The warships unaccounted for when they decided to nuke the Knossos? They probably got through if they weren't destroyed by the Shivans, since the jump node back to Gamma Drax from the nebula was still open.

[Trivial Psychic]

Since we're way off topic now: what ever happened to the NTC Alexandria?

On a side note, has anyone ever stopped to think just how ungainly the Alexandria, being either a Fenris/Leviathan or an Aeolus, would look with an Argo sticking out of the side?  They seriously should have made the Grall an Elysium, then have an escape pod recover the survivors.

[Drogoth]

Since we're way off topic now: what ever happened to the NTC Alexandria?

On a side note, has anyone ever stopped to think just how ungainly the Alexandria, being either a Fenris/Leviathan or an Aeolus, would look with an Argo sticking out of the side?  They seriously should have made the Grall an Elysium, then have an escape pod recover the survivors.

Pretty bad lol. I guess if the Aeolus grew a docking port on the bottom it would look kind of like a mini colossus.. but i always hated how the coli looked like a big water pistol.