Author Topic: Total size of GTVA armada  (Read 8991 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Dilmah G

  • Failed juggling
  • 211
  • The Token "G" of HLP
Re: Total size of GTVA armada
Well with the threat of the Shivans, I'd say it was plausible to some degree for conscription/national service to be enforced, at least in the smaller, more sparsely populated systems. Or for there to be 'Reserve Squadrons', consisting of normal planet goers who were trained to a standard lying around on the planets for when the time comes.
Trendy Lefty. Good music from a good friend of mine.

Freespace Rap: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,62924.0.html

The Fighter Pilot Series: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=72431.msg1431423#msg1431423

The word 'Yo' is only ever to be used as a singular greeting.
It is considered an insult to destroy a perfectly acceptable greeting by misuse. A 'Yo-Yo' is a toy spun from the index finger by small children and enthusiasts,
any such use as a greeting will result in prompt reprimand by any member of the 'African-American' or 'Sri-Lankans-who-think-they're-black' community

Fury`: if General Krav Maga wouldn't be enough, beating up 16 teenagers is going to get me into jail :p /
BlackMan: Maybe if you turned into pedobear you'd be more of a threat

 

Offline Polpolion

  • The sizzle, it thinks!
  • 211
    • Minecraft
Re: Total size of GTVA armada
But Capella was supposed to be one of the most densely populated systems, though by "densely populated" sometimes I think of a system with a high planet/moon size to population ratio. If all Capellans lived in a small, relatively livable moon of a planet, evacuating them would have been a nightmare for the GTVA. One billion inhabitants spread throughout various planets and moons is something different. Well, that's a possibility.

Also, we don't know how important the military is for GTVA citizenship, so we don't know how common it is for a citizen to decide to work for the military.


I remember the number 150 million from somewhere, I'll have to check through briefings though.

EDIT: Nope, it's actually 250 million: http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Briefing_texts_%28FS2%29#A_Flaming_Sword

Just for some perspective, the USAF flys ~5573 airplanes, ~2132 of which are fighters. In a nation of ~310,000,000. The USN operates ~289 ships and >3700 aircraft, for a total of ~9200 aircraft operated by the US(AF and USN).

Judging by all of this, I wouldn't be suprised to see some incredible numbers in the GTVA.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2011, 08:46:24 pm by thesizzler »

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: Total size of GTVA armada
I like to think that spaceships are so retarded expensive that there aren't many of them, because it makes for better missions sometimes.

But hey, whatever works for your campaign

 

Offline Polpolion

  • The sizzle, it thinks!
  • 211
    • Minecraft
Re: Total size of GTVA armada
I like to think that spaceships are so retarded expensive that there aren't many of them, because it makes for better missions sometimes.

But hey, whatever works for your campaign

Yeah, it's really hard to judge space craft cost in a universe that ignores most of the rules of physics.  Thing is that doesn't mean there aren't a hell of a lot of them. The GTVA is, plain and simple, ****ing huge.

 

Offline Drogoth

  • 28
Re: Total size of GTVA armada
But Capella was supposed to be one of the most densely populated systems, though by "densely populated" sometimes I think of a system with a high planet/moon size to population ratio. If all Capellans lived in a small, relatively livable moon of a planet, evacuating them would have been a nightmare for the GTVA. One billion inhabitants spread throughout various planets and moons is something different. Well, that's a possibility.

Also, we don't know how important the military is for GTVA citizenship, so we don't know how common it is for a citizen to decide to work for the military.


I remember the number 150 million from somewhere, I'll have to check through briefings though.

EDIT: Nope, it's actually 250 million: http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Briefing_texts_%28FS2%29#A_Flaming_Sword

Just for some perspective, the USAF flys ~5573 airplanes, ~2132 of which are fighters. In a nation of ~310,000,000. The USN operates ~289 ships and >3700 aircraft, for a total of ~9200 aircraft operated by the US(AF and USN).

Judging by all of this, I wouldn't be suprised to see some incredible numbers in the GTVA.

Yeah but the US also spends a MASSIVE amount of money on its military. Spending 660 billion per year (compared with 98 billion, and China is the next highest spender). The US isn't a good benchmark IMO, as it is just not in line with realistic numbers, as the cracking economy and ballooning deficits are beginning to show.

Shivans however are an excellent benchmark. Look at whats his douches briefing on the colossus. "The shivans might return at any time, any place". Implies shiva paranoia is high, and the public would most definitely back a massive fleet. Mix in the brush wars the terrans had to fight, + the NTF and you actually have a reason for said fleet to exist, especially with our shivan sword of Damocles.

As for The GTVA being '****ing huge' I guess its all in perspective of the universe. My preferred reading is David Weber for science fiction, and to put things in perspective, what I'm used to in SF when you get into ship production capacity etc, the GTVA is piss tiny for the amount of ships it fields. I disagree that the GTVA is huge, even in its own universe. What i DO think is that it is huge in terms of population for its systems, because for its what, 30 odd systems? to field a fleet of the size we have seen, let alone the one we are theorizing based on those numbers, then the resources must be extensively developed. The GTVA could be fielded off one system, all that matters is population and infrastructure.
TC 2 Fan club for Life

 

Offline Liberator

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 210
Re: Total size of GTVA armada
I don't necessarily disagree on the enforced service aspect.

But you don't get a functioning society where 1/2 the population is career military.  A strong military has to have a strong support infrastructure beneath it.  Say what you will about the US Military, all that hardware is designed, built and supplied on a ratio of about 373 citizens to 1 active enlisted soldier.  If you use the US as the guiding mark, then a single destroyer would need to have 3 million people on the ground doing things that make that destroyer possible and relevant, nevermind the other ships.

One thing that might break such a rationalization is that the GTVA's industry and agriculture is highly automated, possibly to the point of the Jetsons where there are only 2 people per factory.

However, at that scale, you don't get the craptons of civilian ships running for the exits during the evacuation of Capella.  As the vast majority of the population, as previously discussed, is already serving on line combat vessels taht are getting blown out of the stars.

For any of the narrative, nevermind the tech, to work out, the GTVA must have system wide populations of at least a billion.  Which is not very high considering the volume of a star system and the population capacities of the stations that the GTVA builds.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline Drogoth

  • 28
Re: Total size of GTVA armada
I don't necessarily disagree on the enforced service aspect.

But you don't get a functioning society where 1/2 the population is career military.  A strong military has to have a strong support infrastructure beneath it.  Say what you will about the US Military, all that hardware is designed, built and supplied on a ratio of about 373 citizens to 1 active enlisted soldier.  If you use the US as the guiding mark, then a single destroyer would need to have 3 million people on the ground doing things that make that destroyer possible and relevant, nevermind the other ships.

One thing that might break such a rationalization is that the GTVA's industry and agriculture is highly automated, possibly to the point of the Jetsons where there are only 2 people per factory.

However, at that scale, you don't get the craptons of civilian ships running for the exits during the evacuation of Capella.  As the vast majority of the population, as previously discussed, is already serving on line combat vessels taht are getting blown out of the stars.

For any of the narrative, nevermind the tech, to work out, the GTVA must have system wide populations of at least a billion.  Which is not very high considering the volume of a star system and the population capacities of the stations that the GTVA builds.

The US has 1,477,896 active personell in the military. if there was a 373 ratio to each soldier that would equal a productive population of 551,255,208 supplying them. Considering thats about 2 million higher then the US's total citizen count (308,745,538), that seems a bit off kilter.

But i suppose the discussion of the feasibility of US military spending belongs elsewhere.

As for automation, I think that has to be the key. I find it very hard to believe that the GTVA would commit ALL of their military ships to the Nebular Theater/NTF Campaign. And even if they did, we the player haven't seen any of them.

Or perhaps Capella is described as densely populated because regardless of overall impact, 250 million people is still a lot of people. Would make sense from a psychological standpoint, and would explain the inexplicable sheer number of naval units and hardware we encounter, if a real densely populates system had billions of citizens.

Or Alpha 1 gets all the goodies and fleet support, where as everyone else duct tapes their consoles and flies mackie style. Who knows
TC 2 Fan club for Life

 

Offline Dilmah G

  • Failed juggling
  • 211
  • The Token "G" of HLP
Re: Total size of GTVA armada
Well if it's implemented as a 'national service' kind of thing, like it is in Singapore and to my knowledge Finland and Malaysia as well, it gives you a nice reserve pool to draw from quickly, and as was done in the Second World War in Britain at least, prevent people in 'priority' occupations from joining. Everything else you can fold into the military, really.

I like to think that spaceships are so retarded expensive that there aren't many of them, because it makes for better missions sometimes.

But hey, whatever works for your campaign

Yeah, it's really hard to judge space craft cost in a universe that ignores most of the rules of physics.  Thing is that doesn't mean there aren't a hell of a lot of them. The GTVA is, plain and simple, ****ing huge.
Well, if you think about it, as far as we know, the majority of combat takes place in space, between fighters and ships, rather than on the ground between infantry forces. Although I do recall mentions of marines somewhere in the campaign. I think that if fighters and bombers are going to form the bulk of Alliance spending, that they would invest in cheaper and easier to mass produce ships and technology, with a few exceptions, like the Erinyes and the Ursa.

Britain's M.O. during the Battle of Britain is probably a good one to look at, they were producing something like over 1k aircraft a month and combat was all air to air, for the most part.

Or Alpha 1 gets all the goodies and fleet support, where as everyone else duct tapes their consoles and flies mackie style. Who knows
I reckon it's likely that that kind of stuff would be a lot more widespread among the Alliance. As well as the general circle-through-square hole/one size fits all mentality when you outfit a force of that size. It's a shame you don't hear about the ill-fitting uniforms, poor tasting food, and cramped accommodation that people in that situation go through more often. :P 
Trendy Lefty. Good music from a good friend of mine.

Freespace Rap: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,62924.0.html

The Fighter Pilot Series: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=72431.msg1431423#msg1431423

The word 'Yo' is only ever to be used as a singular greeting.
It is considered an insult to destroy a perfectly acceptable greeting by misuse. A 'Yo-Yo' is a toy spun from the index finger by small children and enthusiasts,
any such use as a greeting will result in prompt reprimand by any member of the 'African-American' or 'Sri-Lankans-who-think-they're-black' community

Fury`: if General Krav Maga wouldn't be enough, beating up 16 teenagers is going to get me into jail :p /
BlackMan: Maybe if you turned into pedobear you'd be more of a threat

 

Offline Liberator

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 210
Re: Total size of GTVA armada
The ratio of 373 to 1 is drawn off the active pool of approximately 880,000.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline Mars

  • I have no originality
  • 211
  • Attempting unreasonable levels of reasonable
Re: Total size of GTVA armada
Liberator, you're banned from GD for this reason exactly.

The figure you just gave is more than the entire us population: 328 million of us. Let's stick to the topic

The actual figure is approximately (my number says 1.4 million in the US military from answers.com and 307 million from random google search) 212.05 US pop / US military pop
« Last Edit: January 10, 2011, 08:20:59 am by Mars »

 

Offline Liberator

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 210
Re: Total size of GTVA armada
My apologies, I misread the chart.  880,000 is the reserve forces.

Also, my math was 310,000,000 divided by 880,000.

Again, I'm sorry.

 I'll shut up now.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: Total size of GTVA armada
I don't think we need to necessarily hammer Lib into the pavement every time this kind of slipup happens. Whatever our Gendisc differences he's clearly a decent guy and I am happy to see him in threads.

 

Offline headdie

  • i don't use punctuation lol
  • 212
  • Lawful Neutral with a Chaotic outook
    • Minecraft
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • Headdie on Deviant Art
Re: Total size of GTVA armada
hmmm, tried to do a ratio of total military personnel of the world against global population but couldn't find any listings for total military, only ground forces and I haven't the inclination to compile a list of all services so instead I have this.


           Soldiers       /   Population
           89,268,497 /   1,936,126,089
Ratio           1         /   21.68879453

sources
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_troops
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population

I know wiki isn't gospel but the rough numbers gave numbers to work with so :p  yes I know there are a lot of estimates and guessed military strength/whatever that dictator claims their military to be and the data is probably out of date but as I say it gives a rough idea

Soldiers = the total column of the listed wiki page so probably includes non frontline roles.
Minister of Interstellar Affairs Sol Union - Retired
quote General Battuta - "FRED is canon!"
Contact me at [email protected]
My Release Thread, Old Release Thread, Celestial Objects Thread, My rubbish attempts at art

 

Offline Polpolion

  • The sizzle, it thinks!
  • 211
    • Minecraft
Re: Total size of GTVA armada
Actually I think Drogoth raised a good concern when he pointed out the differences in economy from now and post-great war FS. What we know is that there's plenty of raw materials to construct ships, but not necessarily enough to fuel and arm them, hence the Prometheus S and Nebula/gas miner in FS. I'm confident that if the GTVA put in the effort, they could easily have a fleet proportionally larger than the US's Air Force and Navy, but that says nothing about whether or not they actually did put in the effort.

What we need to look up is all of the numbers of ships that the GTVA had built, and use those givens and how they're descriebed (ie there are X ships of rare ship type Y) to perhaps figure out possible fleet sizes that way. At any rate, there's no way to avoid simply smacking arbitrary numbers onto things somewhere...

 

Offline Mars

  • I have no originality
  • 211
  • Attempting unreasonable levels of reasonable
Re: Total size of GTVA armada
Well, the Colossus took 20 years to build, the Orion originally cost three times the wages of the 10,000 people who staffed it.

 

Offline Liberator

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 210
Re: Total size of GTVA armada
So either the Orion is ridiculously cheap to manufacture, or the crew is way overpaid.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Re: Total size of GTVA armada
So either the Orion is ridiculously cheap to manufacture, or the crew is way overpaid.

You could argue they're the only properly compensated military people since Antiquity. :P
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline Androgeos Exeunt

  • Captain Oblivious
  • 212
  • Prevents attraction.
    • Wordpress.com Blog
Re: Total size of GTVA armada
The Ursa costs more than a small moon, but I've never heard of individuals owning small moons anywhere else in the GTVA.

Unless "moon", in this case, means "satellite".
My blog

Quote: Wednesday, 6 November 2019, 1845hrs UTC, #gaming
The_E
behold the power of this fully armed and operational recluse

z64555
but does it destroy planets with a turbo laser

 
Re: Total size of GTVA armada
But Capella was supposed to be one of the most densely populated systems, though by "densely populated" sometimes I think of a system with a high planet/moon size to population ratio. If all Capellans lived in a small, relatively livable moon of a planet, evacuating them would have been a nightmare for the GTVA. One billion inhabitants spread throughout various planets and moons is something different. Well, that's a possibility.

Also, we don't know how important the military is for GTVA citizenship, so we don't know how common it is for a citizen to decide to work for the military.


I remember the number 150 million from somewhere, I'll have to check through briefings though.

EDIT: Nope, it's actually 250 million: http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Briefing_texts_%28FS2%29#A_Flaming_Sword

Just for some perspective, the USAF flys ~5573 airplanes, ~2132 of which are fighters. In a nation of ~310,000,000. The USN operates ~289 ships and >3700 aircraft, for a total of ~9200 aircraft operated by the US(AF and USN).

Judging by all of this, I wouldn't be suprised to see some incredible numbers in the GTVA.

I would take several things into consideration here.
#1- I wouldn't doubt if you took into account fighters, bombers, and support craft that this number would be incredibly high. But you're talking about the airforce, which in a Freespace perspective I could see being a high number if you took into account all squadrons. So far though, this conversation seems to be more about the bigger ships which would me more equivilant to our current naval vessels, and I highly doubt that the U.S. has 9000 Carriers, Cruisers, and Destroyers at their disposal.
#2- Creating the newest class of U.S. carrier costs approx. $6.2 billion dollars. That is mainly metal, composite materials, and some fissionable materials for propulsion. To make something that size that is space faring (regardless if technology has advanced a couple hundred years) has to be extremely expensive, require much more exotic materials and propulsion, and be time consuming to build.
The highest I'd expect the GTVA Terran branch of the military to have would be around 700-900 large size vessels, the vast majority of them being smaller cruiser, frigate, or corvette sized craft. And I still think that's a high estimate, but thats just my opinion.
Then again, we're arguing over a fictional universe, so I think opinions are all that really counts. :-)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 12:05:17 am by Riptide572 »

 

Offline Scotty

  • 1.21 gigawatts!
  • 211
  • Guns, guns, guns.
Re: Total size of GTVA armada
lol 5000 bakhas.