Poll

Would you like the mouse to behave like a joystick as a permanent feature in FSO?

Yes, is more efficient and I don't need the keypad anymore and I can use my other hand to control the ship better.
3 (9.7%)
Yes, but I'd like this as an option, not as a permanent feature.
21 (67.7%)
No, I use mouse scripts to use it like a joystick, so others can use the mouse the way it is now.
1 (3.2%)
No, I like to use both mouse and keypad.
6 (19.4%)

Total Members Voted: 31

Voting closed: February 01, 2012, 10:45:34 am

Author Topic: Using mouse as a joystick  (Read 21120 times)

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Offline chief1983

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
I'd imagine you can remove the spring from the stick, and the throttle resistance is already adjustable, so what else do you need?
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Offline JGZinv

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Just for the folks that are perhaps a bit overzealous about mouse as joystick being the
perfect combination of control and being too powerful...

Well I'd give you these as representative videos:

Tachyon's "Mouse/stick"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53xZBciFppE
Trackball mouse gameplay for comparison
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg6u5o0Fonk

Ace Online's mouse/stick
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-36y5ss4AA

Freelancer example again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUcMsPt68Ws

Maybe some folks find it better than other methods, but I'd still hold that
it's quite far from the perfect combination.
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Offline z64555

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Well crud, *runs back to training simulations*
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Offline Nuke

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Anyone know if my x45 is worth trying to fix/break-in/tweak to be usable as something other than a paperweight?

me personally, id hack the **** out of it. what saitek has, (other than crappy spring mechanisms and massive dead-zones), is really comfortable grips.  it would be nice to get an old sidewinder and frankenstein the saitek handle to it. that would make one mean joystick.

Just for the folks that are perhaps a bit overzealous about mouse as joystick being the
perfect combination of control and being too powerful...

Well I'd give you these as representative videos:

Tachyon's "Mouse/stick"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53xZBciFppE
Trackball mouse gameplay for comparison
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg6u5o0Fonk

Ace Online's mouse/stick
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-36y5ss4AA

Freelancer example again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUcMsPt68Ws

Maybe some folks find it better than other methods, but I'd still hold that
it's quite far from the perfect combination.

i remember in decent 3 i used my sidewinder to steer the ship, but i used the mouse to control the lateral/vertical trusters, and that was a mean combination. i can imagine people who fly primarily with a joystick, bot only own a one hand stick, could control throttle and roll with the mouse in the left hand. thats kind of the stuff i want to make possible.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 08:00:10 pm by Nuke »
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
To be honest i find this discussion about not improving the controls very odd. About as logical as shooting yourself into leg. There have been people new to the FS who had not have joystick (rarity these days - though availability of PS etc console sticks and lot might slowly change that) and who did not like the keyboard controls and found the mouse control too problematic to play with. In short abandoned the game as it lacked proper controls. I fail to see how not improving the controls would help this in any way.
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Offline jr2

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
I have a suspicion that what it boils down to is a fear of loosing an edge.  You see, whilst the mouse may be more accurate, you can throw it off by flying evasively (especially considering you have that joystick, which is king of using all of the turning thrust that is supposed to be available to any given ship class).  Once you close in, you can easily outfly the mouse, as he can't use all of his ship's capability. (You, meanwhile, could have if you chosen, let go of the joystick and sniped it out long range, which you probably would have (or logically should have) if you had a longer range weapon than your opponent.)  So your opponent is stuck at a disadvantage, which is multiplied if his ship has less turning capability than yours, as he can't use all of his capabilities, which are already less than yours, thus making him easy pickings for you.

In short, the closer all inputs come to unlocking the craft's full specified (in other words, what should already be there by the book) turning and maneuvering potential, the closer the experience becomes to a match of skill and tactics, instead of who has better hardware to pull the full potential from their craft.

Time and time again in single player, I have found myself in a dogfight, using the number pad to turn... I finally overtake my opponent (either by my craft's superior turning capability, a mistake on the other AI pilot's part (rare!), or by cutting my circle short), only to lose my edge as soon as I switch to mouse... I don't know if this makes sense, but I use the number pad and the mouse to pull up (or sideways if I'm flying a Ulysses); I get more that way.  The mouse can pull more of my craft's turning potential than the keyboard (at least with my settings), however, I need the number pad so I don't stop turning when I need to pick up my mouse.  Usually that is about when the shields on my opponent have dropped and I'm about to make the kill.  The pick-up-drag is enough to put a few shots off, let my enemy escape, equalize his shields, and I am delayed.

Perhaps with mouse-joystick I might venture above Easy or Medium difficulty.

(If you think the mouse can be frustrating, well, a few (7?) years back, when I was still using a mouse with a ball under it, when the rollers got dirty... yeah, now that's frustrating.  :ick:

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Why are you switching from number pad to mouse?  :wtf: Just aim with the numpad.

Anyway, your argument is basically invalidated by the fact that the top-rank multiplayer guys use all three control inputs and do equally well. They each have their own strengths and weaknesses.

 

Offline jr2

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Hah.

The keyboard is required to switch weapons, manipulate shield, etc (unless you have a bazillion buttons on your joystick).

The mouse is crippled.

Of course if they have a joystick it's the best turning instrument around (as it's not hobbled by needing a reset every two seconds like the mouse).

EDIT: And the number pad will nicely get either the left bank shooting empty space (if I tap left) or the right bank doing the same on the opposite side if I tap the other way.  Yes I could get it just right.  No, a life-or-death dogfight at 12% hull integrity is not the place to be fighting your darn input device.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
I've had no troubles turning with joystick users or aiming with mouse users on a keyboard. I feel like the differences between the input devices are largely minimized by practice.

 

Offline Shade

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
jr2, you might be surprised to learn that one of the best of the current crop of multi players (and one of less than a handful who are within striking distance of QuantumDelta in a dogfight) uses the mouse. Crippled? I think not. The fact is that given equal skill levels, the current controls are very well balanced against one another. Do not mistake your own problems with the mouse for anything other than your own problems - In the right hands, it is deadly.
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Offline chief1983

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Call me old old school, but I still have a hard time fathoming playing a game like this without a joystick.  Maybe it's because XvT required a joystick and those were my multi golden days.
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Offline z64555

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Arguments aside, I still haven't seen any real reason to NOT update the code.

Sushi's newest script works great so far, it just needs some polish and the ability to assign the toggle key to anything the user wants (which, to my understanding requires hard-cord).
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Okay, input methods and their balance. Wall of text approaching....

There have already been changes in at least one input device from retail to improve it. Namely, the joystick sensitivity settings have been changed to a more sensitive curve, which means that you actually can now use settings other than full sensitivity (although I still consider that the best if you have a stick with small enough deadzone). If we wanted to stay completely pure about how Volition balanced the input methods, this shouldn't have been allowed to happen.

Now, I realize that this issues isn't quite perfectly analogous - the sensitivity curve formula used to be absolutely horrible on any other settings than full sensitivity since it lowered the sensitivity around deadzone way too much and then had a sharp spike to the maximum input which actually made the joystick very, very impossible to use to any great effect - but it was still an improvement to one of the input methods from the retail. What it didn't do was give the joystick abilities it didn't use to have. The full sensitivity setting is still the most effective way of using the joystick, but the sensitivity settings change hopefully made it easier for people to start using it in the first place.



Then some technical stuff.

Currently, what the mouse input does is it reads the speed of the mouse, and translates that into the angular velocity at which the ship turns. It doesn't mean you can move your mouse to a certain position on table and the ship will move to pointing at certain spot, then move mouse back to original spot that it used to point at.

What this means is that there's a maximum speed at which you should move your mouse to maximize the effectiveness of your turns. If you move the mouse faster than the ship can turn, the only thing that happens is that you lose table space while the ship will feel like it turns very sluggishly (compared to your frantic mouse waving).

Mathematically speaking,

Input x = dx/dt * sensitivity        |  speed of mouse on x axis, multiplied by mouse sensitivity setting
Input y = dy/dt * sensitivity        |  speed of mouse on y axis, multiplied by mouse sensitivity setting

Don't know the exact code that defines the mouse control handling, but this is more of an idealized formulation of how it (supposedly) works.



What the proposed change would do is to assume a center position for the mouse, and poll deflection from that point of origin and directly (or as a function of that deflection) translate it into input strengt:

Input x = dx * sensitivity        |  location of mouse on x axis, multiplied by mouse sensitivity setting
Input y = dy * sensitivity        |  location of mouse on y axis, multiplied by mouse sensitivity setting

This effectively turns your table into an XY plane where the mouse moves in, defining the strength of X and Y control inputs.


The biggest difference here is that the latter scheme is actually less intuitive than the former. We have been indoctrinated to assume that when we do not move the mouse, the cursor does not move. Similarly, we assume that when we don't move the mouse, the target reticle will stop moving (ship will stop turning) and in current control scheme it does exactly that - you are required to move mouse to keep the target reticle (cursor) moving. But, instead of being able to move the cursor around at whichever speed you please, you are limited by ship's performance, which is independent of any control method you choose.

So, the big advantage of velocity polling mouse interface is that it is intuitive and accurate, which are both direct result of the fact that the movement stops when mouse stops.

This advantage is lost when the interface is changed to position-polling system, but it gains some of the advantages and all the negative aspects of a joystick. The advantage being that you now have analog control over two of the control axes while not losing table space with every movement, and you don't need to move the mouse over the desk to keep on turning.

And that's about it. It doesn't give you an analog Z axis as twist handle joysticks do. It does not give you a feel for what input you are giving to the game, because unlike joystick, the mouse's movements are only limited by the size of your desk space rather than the gimbal angles of a joystick, and this also means you do not gain a clearly palpable center zone, which would likely make aiming even harder than with a joystick. The mouse also does not automatically re-center, although to gain even marginal useability a centering function would likely be required (similar to the mouse script I remember having). Of course, that can also be seen as an advantage because centering springs in many sticks often cause mechanical discontinuities in the friction on moving the joystick, which on Queen's English means that the joystick's movement can become jerky over deadzone when the direction of resistance doesn't smoothly go to zero and start increasing, but instead has sharp "spikes" on it (this is a classic symptom of Saitek's centering mechanism, and one of the reasons I have removed all centering springs from my sticks).


The point of this rambling is that I don't see the "moustick" as an automatic game-breaker superior input mechanism, even combined with the current mouse control.

As such, I have no objections to it being coded in if some valiant coder samurai sees it fit to put in, but I also recognize the argument that switching between different mouse modes in-flight with a hotkey could be a recipe for disaster, and hence propose that either the change option is disabled during missions, similarly to difficulty options which would mean players would have to choose their method of input and stick with it for the mission. The idea of having it as a toggleable option in config screen is also valid as it too would prevent switching between modes during a dogfight.

Or instead of making it globally supported automatically, it could be a FRED flag for mission files, as in " moustic " (allows mouse joystick behaviour)...
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 02:55:43 pm by Herra Tohtori »
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Offline z64555

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Argument recognized (thanks so much for dumbing it down for us! :D)

Well, my opinion on the matter would be to allow for scripts or FRED methods to prohibit mouse mode toggling, as you have suggested.

I believe that the toggle would be a very nice feature, but I also recognize that people have their own opinions on the possibility of it breaking gameplay. As such, I see that it would be a good idea to have some sort of option server-side for multiplayer to disallow usage of the toggle button and force an F2 mouse mode re-configuration mid-flight.

I am potentially against using said safe-gaurd for singleplayer, however. I believe that it is up to the players themselves to choose which method is best for them and not for the mappers to decide (however, it could provide a good plot element, i.e. such as the equipment malfunctions and the player is forced to use one or the other method until the RCO fixes it).
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Offline Spoon

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
All I want for the mouse is a higher sensitivity, so a single swipe with the mouse to a side will instantly put the ship to it's max turning speed.

Also, I have to add that I find this "multi balance" talk just plain silly sounding. For reasons already said by Nuke before me.
And really, how many people are playing multi actively these days? 30 if you scrap the very bottom of the barrel? Is there a ladder, active competitions? money to win? Bragging rights?
'Balance' means jack**** in this case :/
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Offline KyadCK

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
If anyone is actualy paying attention to the supposed "no mousejoy! will unbalance game!" arguments, you'll notice most of them are not opposed to the 4th control type, but the ability to switch from mousejoy to normal mouse at the click of a button. Make it (atleast for multi) an option that must be changed in options with no way for a bind-able toggle key and almost the entire argument goes away

And arguing that joy/key users can just switch to mouse is unfair, it takes at least a quarter second to get our hand there (more then enough to lose a target since during that time we stop turning entirely) and if unlucky even have to take our eyes off the screen assuming we don't just knock it off the table, its not something that can be done mid-dogfight with ease
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Offline jr2

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
If the mouse becomes as good (or close) as a joystick, while retaining its mouse capabilities, joystick users could switch.

 
Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Zacam has convinced me to re-write this when I calm down.
I am still absolutely livid at you, and your mentality.
So for now I shall leave this at "How DARE you force your play style on other people."
And don't for a second suggest that you wouldn't if that was what was required to get this the way you wanted it.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 05:59:28 pm by QuantumDelta »
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Offline Zacam

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick

Thank you for sharing, QD. While I appreciate (and even +1 the desire to not see the mouse become the "One Control to Rule them ALL"), and while I understand and can commiserate the frustration (and far be it from me to ask anybody to censor themselves), I was kinda hoping that you might have maybe put it just a WEE bit differently.

It's one thing to have the opinion (for either right or for wrong) but any ground that you could gain from the merit of your conviction get's lost when it is dressed in dross.

I hope before ANYBODY else decides to address this in any way STOPS for a moment, thinks about it, and addresses the situation in as de-personalized/objective a manner as possible and we'll see if an edit comes by the authors hand to more saliently address the point. And even if it's NOT edited by the author (and I'm having a hard time remaining impersonal about this) then I think the more meatier subject to discuss regarding it is and should remain focused on the controls, or just letting this simmer down and die out until a Feedback call is made to test out builds.

EDIT: Just to add. I hate the thought of "mouse as joystick". Makes me sick to my stomach actually. But then, I don't play this game with a mouse and I cannot conceive of ever NOT owning a joystick. But I do know that I didn't like it in Freelancer, or Aces or anything else that pandered to "Mouse RULZ!!eleventy!1". But I'm also not going to impede the progress of allowing the mouse to have it's day either. I do hope nobody is stupid enough to put in a hot-toggle though. You can either use the mouse as a mouse or as a joystick, no second guessing like schizophrenics week on jeopardy mid-mission. After all, while joystick users may have the OPTION to move their hand to the mouse, a REAL joystick user re-configures deadzone and sensitivity so that they don't have to.

I'd even allow the ability to use mouse-as-joy in multi. Up to a point. You want to play in a Ranked or Validation game though, you don't get that option. Because those games are about "as retail as it gets" which means if you want to duel with a mouse, then you use the mouse as it was originally written.

**Further Edit to address edit by QD
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 06:09:07 pm by Zacam »
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Offline Sushi

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
... or just letting this simmer down and die out until a Feedback call is made to test out builds.

No need for builds... we have a toggleable mouse script right now. Judge for yourself whether it heralds the coming of the apocalypse, whether it's the best thing since Gouda cheese, or whether the rumors of its impact are greatly exaggerated.