Poll

How much are you in debt?

$0
Less than $10
$100 or more
$1000 or more
$5000 and up

Author Topic: How much are you in debt?  (Read 7519 times)

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Re: How much are you in debt?
Yeah, idk why mp-ryan needed to be short with me. It just ended up him being a captain obvious (don't know where what i wrote earlier could not be understood) and i wasn't offensive. If someone from another country didn't want answer solatar's question, they just don't have too (and i don't need to get scolded in the process for being curious).
:wtf:  He was just answering the question.  The whole question was how financial matters are regarded / discussed in countries other than the US.  As I have already pointed out, MP-Ryan isn't American.  He's Canadian.  Thus, he is providing a perspective from another country, as requested.  I cannot see how you'd interpret anything he said as "being short" with anyone?

Thankfully i've lived my life so far paying for everything cash - which means saving up in many cases.  This has saved me, I am sure, from a world of hurt.
Where buying a home is concerned, paying in cash is only an option if you are Filthy Stinking RichTM.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: How much are you in debt?
Yeah, idk why mp-ryan needed to be short with me.

Because there wasn't much to say. He was telling you how debt works in Canada. Now you're crapping on him.
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Offline Bob-san

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Re: How much are you in debt?
Erm... MP-Ryan is from Canada, not the US.  Most Canadians I've known do not think this is splitting hairs.

On topic:  In the US, it is virtually impossible to buy a home without taking out a massive loan.  I live in one of lowest cost-of-living parts of the country, am relatively affluent, and still had to take out >$125,000 in debt to buy a house that is way too small for my family a mere 4 years later.  I don't know how you guys in more expensive parts of the country / world can afford to ever stop renting.  The prospect of being in hock to a bunch of bank scheisters to the tune of $200,000 (let alone $300,000 or $400,000) gives me the screaming heebie-jeebies.
It's all about loan period and repayment plans. If you can afford to pay more on the principle (the actual balance), do so. For example, a $300k loan at 5% for 15 years is a $2372.38/mo payment. It'll cost $427,028 if you make all 180 payments. But if you repay it in 10 years--putting forth $3182/mo, it'll cost $381,836. Add to that your house can gain in value and that mortgage repayments are mostly tax deductible, your annual $38,184 loss counts against your income. If you and your spouse make $120k total, that means taxable income is closer to $82,000 and you'll, together, bring home $70,000 (after mortgage repayment). That's plenty to put towards cost of living and retirement and student loan repayment.

But yeah, massive loans are usually necessary. If you plan to move in the next 1-5 years, you should probably keep renting or, if you buy, hope the property sells for higher than you took the loan for. That way, you can take a chunk of money (tens or even hundreds of thousands) for the next house.
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Offline iamzack

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Re: How much are you in debt?
I read somewhere that renting is more cost effective up until you live in one place for about five years, and after that it'd be better to buy a house. I do remember being skeptical of this article. Maybe I can find it later.
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Offline Bob-san

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Re: How much are you in debt?
I read somewhere that renting is more cost effective up until you live in one place for about five years, and after that it'd be better to buy a house. I do remember being skeptical of this article. Maybe I can find it later.
Well with a house, you're buying a tangible asset. With an apartment, your money evaporates with nothing in return. On the other hand, you also have to pay for gas and electricity, as well as taxes, upkeep, and the full value of any services added. And you're liable for keeping up with and within neighborhood codes.
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Offline iamzack

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Re: How much are you in debt?
I read somewhere that renting is more cost effective up until you live in one place for about five years, and after that it'd be better to buy a house. I do remember being skeptical of this article. Maybe I can find it later.
Well with a house, you're buying a tangible asset. With an apartment, your money evaporates with nothing in return. On the other hand, you also have to pay for gas and electricity, as well as taxes, upkeep, and the full value of any services added. And you're liable for keeping up with and within neighborhood codes.

It's not nothing in return. You've got a place to live. I mean, you don't say buying and then eating food means you're just buying ****.
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Re: How much are you in debt?
What he means is that with rent, you are essentially paying for a service, not goods.  Service is not something you can turn around and resell.  Goods you can resell and get back at least some of the money you spent to buy them.

The principle you pay into your mortgage is money that you can get back when you sell the house (assuming the value of the house stays constant).  If the value of the house increases, you can actually turn a profit.  In the current market, I wouldn't bet on it.
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Offline iamzack

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Re: How much are you in debt?
A service is still not nothing.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: How much are you in debt?
Yeah, idk why mp-ryan needed to be short with me.

Because there wasn't much to say. He was telling you how debt works in Canada. Now you're crapping on him.

I'm glad it wasn't unclear to most people.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: How much are you in debt?
that mortgage repayments are mostly tax deductible,

Oh God, I wish.  There are a lot of screwy things about American mortgages, and their tax deductible nature arguably contributed heavily to the housing boom and collapse, but that feature would be SO nice here.  I would plow all of the tax savings straight back into my mortgage and pay it off 10 years sooner.

On the subject of renting vs mortgages though...

My wife and I rented for several years (at low rental rates) because we didn't know where we would be living.  When we bought our house last year, we expressly looked for a place that cost a little more but which we could live in comfortably, raise a family, and NOT have to renovate or move in the next 20 years.  While we spent somewhere in the neighborhood of $80-90,000 (again, see my previous post on housing cost) more than some of our friends, we know we're staying here and not incurring moving costs again.

By contrast, we have friends who bought starter homes while prices were much inflated, and are now paying a mortgage at a value of approximately $70,000 MORE than the house is actually worth.  Ouch.  Had they rented another 18 months, they could have bought like we did

Really, the decision to rent or purchase depends on several factors:
1.  Duration of stay.
2.  Current personal financial stability (Good job?  Permanent position?)
3.  Interest rates AND housing prices (never look at one without the other).
4.  Cost of renting versus cost of a mortgage.
5.  Decision:  Will future interest rates and prices offset the financial drain of renting now in order to save for the future?
6.  Are my personal and family interests served better by owning my own home, or paying less in rent?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 03:55:26 pm by MP-Ryan »
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: How much are you in debt?
The best thing i could find to do, is buy a cheap plot of land and build you're own structure on it. I could get 1.5 acres at $7000 for something undeveloped.
Heh, this makes me think of the South Jersey shore communities I've stayed at in the past.  At least before the housing bubble burst, you'd have to pay a few hundred thousand just for a small lot a few blocks from the ocean. :p

 

Offline Bob-san

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Re: How much are you in debt?
A service is still not nothing.
You're correct that having a roof over your head (even temporarily) is something tangible. However, you cannot resell most apartments (though you can sell the lease agreement). An apartment would be considered a service. On the other hand, a house is a tangible, durable product. If the house collapses through no fault of your own, insurance covers the loss but probably doesn't rebuild. If your apartment collapses through no fault of your own, you may have had renter's insurance but otherwise can consider it a complete loss.

The biggest pros for stand-alone houses include it being a tangible asset and possibly cheaper per square foot. Assuming the home is worth $200,000, your first payment has to beat 1/12th the interest and still pay into the principle. For example, a $200k mortgage at 6% means first payment is $1199.10. Every month, you pay 0.5% interest on the mortgage. That first month, $1000 of the payment is on interest and $199.10 is on the principle. The second month, $999 is on interest and $200.10 on the principle. The third month is $998 interest, $211.10 principle. By the 12th payment, the remaining principle is about $197,500. It doesn't seem like much (and it isn't), but the 360th payment is $6 interest and $1393.10 principle.

Above all, that's why you have to stay in a house for years or even decades for it to be a worthwhile investment. 12 months later, if housing values go up 10%, your $200k home ($2,500 in your pocket) is now worth $220k on the market, you can sell for $220k. $197,500 of that goes towards repaying the mortgage in full and the remainder--$22,500--goes into your pocket. What happened in the housing crisis is that people were hoping house values would continue to rise. They'd hop into adjustable-rate mortgages and bet that, in x months, the house will be worth more. Then not only do they pay similar to rent, but they'll make a lump sum at the end. The bet worked for years as urban homes especially skyrocketed in price, gaining 3%, 5%, 10%, or more each year. However, those house prices were only there because of demand; the actual value of the property didn't rise by 3%, 5%, 10%, etc.--it made smaller gains. That $200k house 3 years ago is worth $240k today according to the market, but is really worth more like $212k. Since the bubble wasn't just spread over a few years and year-to-year gains were pretty outrageous, (say, 3+5+10+8+5+8+10%) that house bought for $200k 7 years ago is now worth, on market, $320k. The actual value, however, was closer to $230k. Someone who bought the home for $320k loses $90k in equity practically overnight.

Anyways, I could go on and on about loan repayments and the like. MP-Ryan is correct, though. From a consumer standpoint, there's quite a few factors to consider if you're thinking of buying. One more thing to add, though...
7. Convenience: is the house closer/further from my and my spouse's workplaces? What's in the local neighborhood?

If you bought a house since the financial crisis or are paying for one from before the bubble expanded out of control, you're probably alright. While you owe that outrageous sum, the only thing you stand to lose is property of the home. In fact, I'd say your risk gets greater as time goes on, especially if you're laid off. If you paid $50k towards your mortgage principle, default, and are foreclosed upon, you lose that $50k. If you only paid $5k on the principle, you only stand to lose that relatively small sum. Remember that the bank owns the title to the house until you finish paying the principle.

That's also why it's so important to pay for loans as soon as possible, prioritizing the highest interest rates and then the highest sums. If you owe $10,000 on your credit card and have a 30% APR, you need to pay the credit card as soon as possible. Today, you owe $10k. If you can afford a $1k payment, you'll only owe $9,225. The second month, you'll owe $8430. The third, $7616. If you keep paying $1000/mo... the twelfth, you'll only need to pay $308 and then you'll owe nothing more. The credit card company cared more about the interest payment ($250/mo) and asked for $300 or $400 a month--which would draw out repaying for 5 years and let them collect that 30% APR as long as they can.

Anyways, if you had other debts at lower rates, you'd take that 12th month's $692 extra and put it towards a second debt that now has the highest interest--and keep doing putting your set "debts payment" against the highest interest rate. Instead of pocketing $1000 after paying that credit card, you should put that $1000 towards the mortgage. Going back to that $200k @ 6% fixed mortgage, you'd then add the $1,000 towards the mortgage in full; instead of $1200/mo, you'd put forth $2200 and your 30-year mortgage would be paid off in 10 years 2 months.

In the long term, I'd classify loans with collateral (real estate, vehicles, capital expenditure) as different from unsecured loans (health, education, furniture, etc.). The former isn't really debt as repayment ends in the collateral being seized and sold, while the latter will haunt you and make your life far more miserable.
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Offline S-99

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Re: How much are you in debt?
:wtf:  He was just answering the question.  The whole question was how financial matters are regarded / discussed in countries other than the US.  As I have already pointed out, MP-Ryan isn't American.  He's Canadian.  Thus, he is providing a perspective from another country, as requested.  I cannot see how you'd interpret anything he said as "being short" with anyone?
The shortness of his answer to his question lead me to believe that he was being short with me. What would've really helped in his communication of his answer to me would be at least letting me know what country he's from. If that would've happened. I wouldn't have been so quick to figure agitation on his end from what appeared to be offense taken from me asking the question (which was actually solatar's question that i was also hoping for an answer like he). I reread his answer. No he wasn't being short. But like i said, it's not much of an answer for the question not stating what country he is from. I'll admit when i was wrong, and i was wrong in the way i interpreted mp-ryan's answer. But, he could've communicated better. That's what led to all of this.

I'm going to leave this thread since my presence anymore in it will further derail an educational thread.
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: How much are you in debt?
Man, remind me to ask Bob-san if I ever need financial advice. :p