[Col. Fishguts]

Well, only fragments of what's going on are getting out of Libya at the moment. But it appears that Benghasi and Al-Baidha are under control of the protestors, Lybian airforce planes and helicopters have landed in Malta and Ghadhafi himself is rumoured to be on his way to Venezuela... all of this is unconfirmed at the moment.

But I guess the protestors are ready for an all-out civil war if necessary, since they know if Ghadhafi remains somehow in power, his retribution would be a massacre.

[Unknown Target]

Where'd you hear that he was heading to Venezuela?

[Col. Fishguts]

Reported on a swiss news page, the libyan ambassador in China, Hussein Sadik al Musrati claimed yesterday evenening on Al-Jazeera that Ghadhafi is trying to make his way to Venezuela.... maybe only a rumour,but I woulnd't be surprised if he suddenly would show up there seeking asylum.

[Unknown Target]

Venezuela, in my opinion, is an interesting choice for several reasons.

[perihelion]

@carbine7; I would first like to see secondary confirmation of what he speaks ( I will also watch the video as soon as I can). I haven't heard anywhere else about that, other than one side is fighting against the other. It's too chaotic right now and we should remain calm so that when the relevant information does get out, we can make the best decision we can with it.

While I certainly support the "Let's not jump to conclusions based on hearsay" being espoused here, what "decisions" are you under the impression we are in any position to make?  It isn't like we have a damn bit of influence on the actual power-movers at play.  We are, at best, witnesses.  At worst, voyeurs.

[Unknown Target]

The perceptions we make color the perceptions of those around us and those we may influence.

[Unknown Target]

Libyan air force pilots land in Malta seeking political asylum;

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110221/ap_on_re_eu/eu_malta_libya

[Bobboau]

holy ****, wow.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/21/us-libya-protests-pilots-idUSTRE71K4S320110221

ordered to bomb protesters.

[Bobboau]

so what are some options on what "we" (our governments) can do to help out.
Freezing Qaddafi's finances? (has this already happened?)
Setting up a no fly zone? (with the pilot defectors this might be a real option now)
Sanctions would do nothing as that is a slow acting deterrent, and we need something fast acting to stopp the bloodbath.

[Scotty]

so what are some options on what "we" (our governments) can do to help out.
Freezing Qaddafi's finances? (has this already happened?)
Setting up a no fly zone? (with the pilot defectors this might be a real option now)
Sanctions would do nothing as that is a slow acting deterrent, and we need something fast acting to stopp the bloodbath.

Nothing.  It's not our fight, and I don't think anyone would welcome our intervention.

[Bobboau]

I don't know, I would think the people getting bombed wouldn't mind... there has to be something we can do, some sort of pressure we can apply.

[Sushi]

I don't know, I would think the people getting bombed wouldn't mind... there has to be something we can do, some sort of pressure we can apply.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Libya

Worked out real well last time we tried that. 

[Bobboau]

yeah, well at that time we didn't have Libya's own UN representatives calling him a "genocidal war criminal". I think this is a slightly different situation.

He has effectively lost whatever sort of legitimacy he may have had and is now simply using his nation's military to kill as many people as he can while he still can.

The fighter jets he is using to kill his people cannot operate without fuel and a place to rearm and a place to land and take off from, I don't think a missile strike limited to his air force bases would be seen as an invasion to the people getting bombed by the planes flying out of them, and I think just the threat of it would possibly be enough to end this massacre, we wouldn't even have to do it, just say we were going to if he didn't stop attacking his own people.
and by we, I mean the UN, or all of the UN other than China at least (USA+EU+Arab league).

[Rodo]

There's no need for more US intervention, don't you think?

[Bobboau]

which is why I'm saying the names of such organizations as the UN the EU and the Arab League.

[Sushi]

which is why I'm saying the names of such organizations as the UN the EU and the Arab League.

By the time they come to actionable consensus, this will probably all be over.

[Scotty]

I don't know, I would think the people getting bombed wouldn't mind... there has to be something we can do, some sort of pressure we can apply.

Nothing.  It's not our fight, and I don't think anyone would welcome our intervention.

Reposted for emphasis.  Everyone needs to just keep their hands out of the situation, or the whole mess will just happen again in another 50 years.

[SpardaSon21]

So all of this has happened before, and all of it will happen again?

[NGTM-1R]

There's no need for more US intervention, don't you think?

Let us be frank, then. There is. Our mistake, our great mistake, was to commit ground troops to Iraq. The US has intervened in Arab affairs before, usually from a distance, usually with aircraft or cruise missiles, and it has gone fairly well or at least not devolved into a giant cluster****.

The Med is almost never without a CVBG and the United States has brought the Libyan military to its knees using a CVBG before. If as Bob says Mr. Q/G/K is stupid enough to use a discrete, easily targeted resource like aircraft to kill his own civilians, we have the means to take that away most efficiently.

There is only one valid reason not to launch the strike, and that is because it will upset some of our less democratic allies. Morally, however, it is utterly reprehensible to not act.

If there was no need for intervention, we wouldn't have dictators murdering people.

[Bobboau]

it's weird being on the "lets bomb'em" side with you. As dis-eager as I am, due to the events of the early to present 21st century, to drop bombs/missiles on yet another Muslim country for it's own good, I keep comeing to the same conclusion, the same way you did.

"If  Mr. Q/G/K is stupid enough to use a discrete, easily targeted resource like aircraft to kill his own civilians, we have the means to take that away most efficiently, then morally it is utterly reprehensible to not act.".

In fact if anything I have almost a sense of guilt about how horribly we failed else were that I want to make it up, but that is the source of my conflict, I was so sure last time that Iraq and Afghanistan were the right course of action and I worry that this might turn out the same way.

In short I am conflicted, I desperately want to do something, yet I am terrified of doing the wrong thing, but I don't want to shoot down any possibility just out of irrational reaction.