[Unknown Target]

The truth of the matter is, in my opinion, that if this is really an uprising for democracy, then it's the people's fight, not the US's. If they publicly ask for another country's help, then that country can choose to give it - but so long as no request is made, then it is not our place to draw conclusions.

There are other, practical concerns as well - but I feel that the thing we should really be looking at is that this is ostensibly a people's revolution - and it's the people's fight.

[Bobboau]

but that's the thing, I have been watching a lot of videos coming out of Libya and of the people who speak (some times broken) English a common thing they say is something to the effect of "how can you just sit there? we are dieing! help us!".
I have yet to see one that said "we've got this, don't need any help at all".
now, they are not asking the US for help directly, and I'm not saying we should act unilaterally, but there is _begging_ for help from people who have just seen their mother get blown to bits for the international community to step in and stop the massacre.

[Bobboau]

yet another "holy ****" moment brought to you buy a dieing monster:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcNFlT9boRs

[NGTM-1R]

There are other, practical concerns as well - but I feel that the thing we should really be looking at is that this is ostensibly a people's revolution - and it's the people's fight.

Injustice anywhere poses a threat to justice everywhere, to quote MLK. All that is required for the trimuph of evil, etc.

If this is a good, and I'm pretty sure that we'll agree on that, then if you would be called good you must be willing to support it. If this is the fight for democracy, then all who would be called democratic must be willing to take up arms and join.

[Unknown Target]

So you think that we should storm in there, choose a side (when the sides are in flux), help them gain power, and then support whoever they elect?

What happens when another uprising occurs and expects the same thing? And the US is too stretched to help? Then they get called deserters.

Of course, if they step in here, there's a very real chance whoever gets put in power, if he's helped by the US, will just be called another installed dictator. Or are you saying that possibility is so low that we should go in anyway and not think about it?

After watching that video, I find myself conflicted, but again; what can I do? Scream that we send troops to Libya? With the US economy crumbling around us and my country's political system on the verge of splitting in two?

[NGTM-1R]

I've already offered you an option and you have ignored it. Your efforts to put words in my mouth are neither appreciated nor welcome, sir, and it reflects poorly on you.

We have plans in place to collapse the Libyan military's ability to operate its aircraft and control its forces in the field, and have for decades. Carry them out, and the let the rest run its course. Strike discrete, easily identifiable targets such as the air force and command and control centers.

We have the ability to exercise power without becoming directly involved via boots on the ground or pledges of support. No strings. Simply a nudge. It didn't work on Saddam in Gulf One, but he didn't have an active rebellion underway. It worked on Serbia during Kosovo.

[Bobboau]

How about we do just like the protesters are doing, lets not support anything, lets just oppose Gaddafi.

I mean i don't see him regaining power at this point, all that's left is how many people is he going to take down with him, if we can destroy his logistical advantage, he will be much less capable of inflicting death. As to what happens after, that is a different question, but what ever that may be, we will likely be in a better position if we can say we did our part in the fight against him.

[Unknown Target]

I've already offered you an option and you have ignored it. Your efforts to put words in my mouth are neither appreciated nor welcome, sir, and it reflects poorly on you.

You offered me this option;

then all who would be called democratic must be willing to take up arms and join.

Forgive me if I disagree with that course of action.

Bobbaou, I can agree with that.



Careful words and wise speech will save the day in this, not bombastic rhetoric or great leaps where the platform is only assumed to be on the other side.

[NGTM-1R]

You offered me this option;

That is not an option. That is a reason to act. Try scrolling up a bit more. By agreeing with Bob, who is agreeing with me, we are no longer even arguing; you're simply trolling now.

[Unknown Target]

I acknowledge your response.

Does anyone want to conjecture regarding the global fallout from a civil war or violent overthrow of the current government?

[Bobboau]

Islamic Republic of Tunibygypt?

[Nemesis6]

Regarding the fighter jets -- Two pilots have defected to Malta after receiving orders to bomb protesters:

VALLETTA, Malta – Two Libyan air force jets landed in Malta on Monday and their pilots asked for political asylum amid a bloody crackdown on anti-government protesters in Libya, a military source said.
The two Mirage jets landed at Malta International Airport shortly after two civilian helicopters landed carrying seven people who said they were French. A military source familiar with the situation said the passengers had left in such a hurry that only one had a passport.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=133940091

It is now my opinion that not only is Gaddhafi a crazy person as he's showed time and time again in the political arena, he is also a downright maniac! :-/

[Bobboau]

yeah, that's been covered, and unfortunately not all Libyan pilots had as strong a sense of right and wrong as the protesters have been getting bombed.

also make sure you look at this vid I posted 3 posts back for your daily dose of 'sick ****'

[General Battuta]

yeah, that's been covered, and unfortunately not all Libyan pilots had as strong a sense of right and wrong as the protesters have been getting bombed.

also make sure you look at this vid I posted 3 posts back for your daily dose of 'sick ****'

Holy **** that was brutal. I wouldn't say people shouldn't watch it, but be advised going on it's pretty raw.

[Bobboau]

found an interesting one, nothing especially nasty going on, but you have a small group of protesters who have captured one of the mercenaries, and are interrogating him, apparently some of them have more loyalty to Gaddafi than his bank account, or so this guy says.

oh, another good one this teacher going on about solders defecting, mercenaries, and another mention of the use of AAA against the protesters.

[Nemesis6]

yeah, that's been covered, and unfortunately not all Libyan pilots had as strong a sense of right and wrong as the protesters have been getting bombed.

also make sure you look at this vid I posted 3 posts back for your daily dose of 'sick ****'

Holy **** that was brutal. I wouldn't say people shouldn't watch it, but be advised going on it's pretty raw.

Well to be fair, it's not as raw as it's... burned, I guess. 

[Dilmah G]

Eurgh. What on Earth were the people around them doing? Show the dead guys some respect. 

[Bobboau]

there is a video where Gaddafi has an umbrella open and says he "would've liked to spend the evening with the youth in Green Square but that the rain had stopped him from doing that", I might be looking too much into it, but could this be a reference to the air strikes?

[Bobboau]

Eurgh. What on Earth were the people around them doing? Show the dead guys some respect. 

They were collecting the dead, going "holy ****", and filming it so that the rest of the world would see what has been going on, I'm assuming they had a building full of dead that they were still pulling out of the building.

[General Battuta]

Eurgh. What on Earth were the people around them doing? Show the dead guys some respect. 

Dude, did you hear the screaming? These people were ****ing mourning. So much raw anger and outrage and sadness it had me really upset. I think 'show the world' is pretty respectful.