[Mustang19]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110312/ap_on_re_af/af_libya

The Arab League wants an NFZ.

[StarSlayer]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110312/ap_on_re_af/af_libya

The Arab League wants an NFZ.

Well they've got air forces, some with US supplied top of the line aircraft.

[Mustang19]

Jordan, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia do have modern jets and could pull it off themselves. But they're still dragging their feet.

All three of those countries are basically dictatorships and I would be quite surprised if they helped overthrow a fellow autocrat, as much as nearly everyone hates Gadaffi personally.

[StarSlayer]

Jordan, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia do have modern jets and could pull it off themselves. But they're still dragging their feet.

All three of those countries are basically dictatorships and I would be quite surprised if they helped overthrow a fellow autocrat, as much as nearly everyone hates Gadaffi personally.

Egypt has about 240 Vipers and 47 AH-64Ds not to mention a slew of Phantoms, Dassaults and various other craft.  They should be able to slap the **** out of the Colonel's air power.

[Mustang19]

Yeah, that would be nice. But the political situation in Egypt is special at the moment. The transitional government is taking it's time settling in. Although the people of Egypt certainly have their hearts with the Libyan rebels.

[IceFire]

I've been reading some articles about imposing a no-fly zone. It's a bit more than just saying do not fly and putting up a CAP over the country. Radar sites, and any functioning SAM and AAA systems will apparently need to be eliminated one way or another and potentially air force bases would have their runways cratered.

Something on that level is probably best undertaken in my mind by the RAF, USN, USAAF or the French.

[Nemesis6]

I've been reading some articles about imposing a no-fly zone. It's a bit more than just saying do not fly and putting up a CAP over the country. Radar sites, and any functioning SAM and AAA systems will apparently need to be eliminated one way or another and potentially air force bases would have their runways cratered.

Something on that level is probably best undertaken in my mind by the RAF, USN, USAAF or the French.

Yep, Hillary or Bill Clinton spoke about this -- Establishing a no-fly zone would have to entail ground assaults against such installations, and then you've gone against the rebels' demands of no foreign troops on Libyan soil, in which case why not just get directly involved if you're gonna go that far?

[Mustang19]

Ground based air defenses can't really deny control of the air to the enemy. How good are they at doing this? Well, less than 1 in 50 SAMs launched against NATO aircraft in the Balkans actually hit. SAM/AAA distract and attrit but have rarely ever substituted for interceptors. And most of Libya's good SAMs are concentrated around Tripoli.

Besides, even if the Arab League only flew CAP over rebel territory this would help a lot.

Yep, Hillary or Bill Clinton spoke about this -- Establishing a no-fly zone would have to entail ground assaults against such installations, and then you've gone against the rebels' demands of no foreign troops on Libyan soil, in which case why not just get directly involved if you're gonna go that far?

If Hillary said that she's just being Obama's lapdog and justifying US nonintervention. You don't need ground assaults to take out SAMs, anti-radiation missiles launched from aircraft (HARM, ALARM, Kh-31, etc.) are designed specifically to deal with them.

[Unknown Target]

Yeah, that would be nice. But the political situation in Egypt is special at the moment. The transitional government is taking it's time settling in. Although the people of Egypt certainly have their hearts with the Libyan rebels.

If the people of Egypt were in control of their government, wouldn't they be sending those fighters?

[Bobboau]

they are rather busy setting up their new government, I think it is a little unreasonable to expect them to wage a non-defensive war right now.

[Unknown Target]

they are rather busy setting up their new government, I think it is a little unreasonable to expect them to wage a non-defensive war right now.

Who is busy setting up their new government?

[Bobboau]

the Egyptians.

[Mustang19]

When the Egyptian government needed to crush labor protests it did it in a heartbeat. But sending a few aircraft to fly CAP over Libya somehow takes more time.

[Bobboau]

well, it takes a functioning national government, which is just barely how I would describe the state of Egypt.

[Unknown Target]

Interesting point Mustang19.

the Egyptians.

Which Egyptians?

[General Battuta]

Interesting point Mustang19.

the Egyptians.

Which Egyptians?

I don't know, presumably the same ones who decide when to commit to military action in the affairs of a geographically proximate, militarized nation?

And no that's not 'the people'.

[Nuke]

Interesting point Mustang19.

the Egyptians.

Which Egyptians?

the ones in the purple hats
source: my ass

[Dilmah G]

Ground based air defenses can't really deny control of the air to the enemy. How good are they at doing this? Well, less than 1 in 50 SAMs launched against NATO aircraft in the Balkans actually hit. SAM/AAA distract and attrit but have rarely ever substituted for interceptors. And most of Libya's good SAMs are concentrated around Tripoli.

Besides, even if the Arab League only flew CAP over rebel territory this would help a lot.

Yep, Hillary or Bill Clinton spoke about this -- Establishing a no-fly zone would have to entail ground assaults against such installations, and then you've gone against the rebels' demands of no foreign troops on Libyan soil, in which case why not just get directly involved if you're gonna go that far?

If Hillary said that she's just being Obama's lapdog and justifying US nonintervention. You don't need ground assaults to take out SAMs, anti-radiation missiles launched from aircraft (HARM, ALARM, Kh-31, etc.) are designed specifically to deal with them.

Clinton said we needed ground assaults to take out SAM and radar sites? Urgh.  I agree with you there.

I don't personally think the Arab league have pilots trained or well experienced enough to pull off the job most efficiently, though. The Saudi Air Force, for instance, is notoriously bad worldwide (about the closest thing you can get to a corrupt air force, where a Flight Lieutenant can just drop money in someone's pockets and take his family with him in the aircraft). The Jordanian and Egyptian Air Forces might stand a chance through sheer numbers, but I think a lot more general duties officers are going to pay the price than necessary.

Air Forces like the British, American, French, Dutch, and Australian train, and in some cases have experience with these kinds of operations far more than the Arab nations do.

I won't say anything about stopping the Arab League trying to enforce something, but I think we should be prepared for more losses than we're used to expecting from our own Air Forces.

EDIT: Spelling.

[karajorma]

Fly it as a joint mission with them.

Makes much more sense than doing it alone or leaving it to them alone.

[Dilmah G]

Yeah, I think that would be the most effective course of action as well, assuming the UN want to approve of it. A lot of the other Air Forces have experience working together from exercises like Red Flag anyway.