[General Battuta]

But oh boy it still feels to be far from a finished product. The fellas will have to push really had to get this in release condition on this time frame.

Given that the build is months old, no they won't (look at the datestamps on the files)

Caspian Border maps are up for those of you who weren't as pro as me and didn't grab the passwords for the locked Caspians last week. :smug: Take a spin, jets own, helicopters own, game owns

Origin's fine btw

[Pred the Penguin]

Oooo helicopters! Maybe I will cave in to origin. o_o

How realistic is the helicopter handling?

[Scotty]

Oooo helicopters! Maybe I will cave in to origin. o_o

How realistic is the helicopter handling?

If your average lay-gamer can at least pick it up over the course of a few games, I'm gonna go with "not very."

[Pred the Penguin]

Hehe... one can dream. Battlefield 3 will be fun in any case.

[Achillion]

I think in the case of Battlefield, a balance between realism and simplicity is better than full realism, when it comes to vehicles. Especially jets and helis which are hard to control in general. If only 1 in 20 players can fly well, it really wont help with the general fun of the game.

[MR_T3D]

after playing with them, all aircraft are fueled by weaksauce.

planes in 42 were more effective than these.

[Al-Rik]

Maybe you need to level up, to get more effective weapons for the planes ?

In BF 2 Jets and Gunships are the most effective weapons. Lots of frags without any need for teamwork, simply drop a bomb.
The stationary AA was useless, because any good pilot knows hot to destroy them without getting shoot down.
The mobile AA was most time used to kill infantry, because fragging at the frontline gives more points than stay behind and guard against Jets and Helos.

I'm not quite sure how DICE is handling that problem now.
IMHO as pilot you should only get points if you do your work. Killing a tank with a guided AT-Missile should give points, killing a lonely infanteryman with a guided AT-Missile should give none.
Teamkills with Aircrafts ( an Handgrandes and RPGs ) should give more negative score than normal Teamkills.

And something should be done against Teamkilling for  Jets, like it's been done in Project Reality:
You have to request a pilot kit ( which is limited ) and if someone TKs you for your kit he will get punished.

But i think DICE has done nothing against it, so i except that half of the team will wait at the jetspawn to get in an aircraft, instead of fighting at the frontline.

[Mefustae]

after playing with them, all aircraft are fueled by weaksauce.

planes in 42 were more effective than these.

Well, the only aircraft you get in Caspian Border are fighters. What do you expect them to do?

Even in their vanilla condition, with only their gun, they can be used quite effectively to keep the other jets and - more importantly - attack helicopters out of the sky. While not great at strafing, you can spot the occasional enemy soldier or vehical on the ground, and light them up with enough fire to keep them busy. Once you've flown enough to level up a few times, you've got chaff, missiles, stealth, and faster-firing guns (at least, that's what I'm up to now, not sure what you get after faster belt feeds), and you're a force to be reckoned with. Keeping the skies clear, that's what fighters are for. There are going to be ground attack aircraft - ie. A-10 among others - in the full version, and I'm sure they'll  be far more useful in terms of ground combat. But as they stand, the jets are actually pretty awesome as long as you don't try to do things they aren't designed to do.

In terms of the choppers, they can be pretty devastating. I haven't leveled them up, and I'm far from proficient at flying them, but with a good pilot they could definitely dominate the map. That is, provided they stay out of the way of the jets. Nothing makes me happier than strafing the **** out of an attack helicopter and watching it try hopelessly to escape. 300 points in the bag, baby.

[Achillion]

Could you spawn directly into a jet in BF2? Cause if not it's a nice addition. It kinda sort fixes the problem of people queueing for aircraft since you now know that it's probably gonna get stolen by another pilot spawning in the seat.

[Gortef]

But oh boy it still feels to be far from a finished product. The fellas will have to push really had to get this in release condition on this time frame.

Given that the build is months old, no they won't (look at the datestamps on the files)

True that, but still it feels like there are so many things to do.

Oh and I was in the middle of reinstalling my W7 when those CB passwords were lingering on the net. Talk bout bad timing.
Then again the bloody thing doesn't regocnize my X52 again . Only one game controller is supported afaik... and since I have also wheel&pedals connected the game thinks those are my only controller. So I didn't actually miss anything much. Can't fly without my X52. I hope they will fix that to the release.

[Achillion]

I got a G13 about 6 months ago and I considered the little thumbstick to be a little extra feature I'd never use.
The first time I used it in BC2 I realised how great it is flying helis with an analogue stick without moving my hand away from my standard gaming position. It works great for the jets in BF3 too.

I was always a joystick "purist" when it came to space combat sims (Freespace, X-Wing, though the latter never gave you a choice), but after my Thrustmaster kicked the bucket I haven't been able to find a decent HOTAS joystick with rudder within my budget range. The G13 actually works brilliantly with Freespace by using the stick for quick manoeuvring and the mouse for finer aim once the enemy's near the reticle.

If anyone is on the fence at any time about a G13, consider this post a recommendation for getting it!


PS: Sorry for going from slightly off topic to completely off topic, but while on the subject, if anyone can recommend a decently priced HOTAS, please PM or reply. I got the Thrustmaster Afterburber Force Feedback for £70 back in the day, which was a bargain considering that a Sidewinder cost just as much and the Thrustmaster had Force Feedback, full size throttle and a rudder on the throttle piece. :-(

[Dragon]

CH Products HOTAS is really good and I've got mine (used) for about 120 pounds (at current exchange rate). But it was after a long search for a good deal. You won't get any complete set much lower than that.

[Achillion]

Hm, CH products look a bit too professional and pricey for my range. I'm more interested in products specifically aimed at gaming, with a lower price tag and the unavoidable lower quality that comes with it.

The "Thrustmaster T-Flight Hotas X" is closer to what I'm looking for, though I wouldn't mind moving slightly up the price scale from there (anything under £100 would be gravy).

To avoid derailing the thread though, I think I'll drop it for now and start a new thread when I decide to search the market more seriously, to get some opinions from you lot

[Al-Rik]

The Thrustmaster Hotas is not bad (I used it for 2 years),  but I prefer the Saitek X 52. It's more precise than the Thrustmaster.

Anyway, BF3 is not a simulation, and I prefer to fly with joystick and keyboard.
I use the Joystick for pitch an yaw, and throttle to set the speed (like cruise control ). But for roll and fast change of speed I use the WASD Keys of my keyboard.

That works very well in BF2 and in the BF 2142 Mod First Strike ( a Star Wars Mod with a lot of fighter combat ).

[IceFire]

Maybe you need to level up, to get more effective weapons for the planes ?

In BF 2 Jets and Gunships are the most effective weapons. Lots of frags without any need for teamwork, simply drop a bomb.
The stationary AA was useless, because any good pilot knows hot to destroy them without getting shoot down.
The mobile AA was most time used to kill infantry, because fragging at the frontline gives more points than stay behind and guard against Jets and Helos.

I'm not quite sure how DICE is handling that problem now.
IMHO as pilot you should only get points if you do your work. Killing a tank with a guided AT-Missile should give points, killing a lonely infanteryman with a guided AT-Missile should give none.
Teamkills with Aircrafts ( an Handgrandes and RPGs ) should give more negative score than normal Teamkills.

And something should be done against Teamkilling for  Jets, like it's been done in Project Reality:
You have to request a pilot kit ( which is limited ) and if someone TKs you for your kit he will get punished.

But i think DICE has done nothing against it, so i except that half of the team will wait at the jetspawn to get in an aircraft, instead of fighting at the frontline.

I feel like they have solved the jet/helicopter domination "issue" by making Engineers capable of carrying mobile SAMs. In my brief stint with the Caspian border map I downed a couple of Flankers and later on I shot down a Super Cobra. If equipped correctly a co-ordinated team can now take down enemy air assets without requiring the dedicated anti-aircraft vehicle or another fighter jet. This is interesting... I'll be very interesting to see how the balance goes in the end.

[Achillion]

I think that makes for good balance too.
The engineer can almost easily shoot down a jet if it's in range with the anti-air launcher, but to do so he loses his ability to fire ground rockets, as you can't fire without a lock on an aircraft.
So your engineers basically get to pick between anti-tank or anti-jet (-heli), which sort of balances it out a bit.

[MR_T3D]

The problem is, BLOODY FLARES AND IR SMOKE ARE ESSENTIAL to counter all the new guided munitions in the game (remember, the retail will have javelin missile launcher for engineers) and yet those two things that only counter guided weapons are both unlocks that require using the vehicles to unlock.
So if you don't put in the time to get them before the end of the first week, 90% of the time you get in a vehicle, you'll be killed by things you have almost no possible counter for.



Also, the aircraft gun in BF3 barely tickles infantry, it's ridiculous.

[Achillion]

It's always possible they'll balance a few things on release though, especially subtleties like damage. I mean there's a reason they held an open beta.

As for the unlocks, Ι guess the idea is that it's as much effort for the engineer to unlock the AA rockets as it is for the jets to get the defences.
Also, there's always the option of staying out of the engineer's range, the easiest way being getting near max altitude, while still dogfighting other jets for points.

[MR_T3D]

Except it's significantly easier to acquire SAMs as engineer, because of several reasons:
-Earning points as engineer is much, much easier
-One can, whenever they want, spawn as engineer, jets are limited
-Engineers can be played in any gamemode, even no-vehicle infantry only ones and TDM

It's just a bad dynamic:
offensive, easy to use, fire and forget, and effective weapon needing an unlock: that is okay.
the defensive counter, not 100% effective needing an unlock: BAD

[Achillion]

Well yes, you have a very important point regarding the ease of unlocking the AA weapons, since you can unlock it by playing deathmatch as engineer basically.

If it becomes too much of a problem though, if people really cant fly jets, I think it's something they will balance accordingly, perhaps by making them less reliable or decrease damage/range.
I know it seems like I have too much faith in the devs, but I really enjoyed BF BC2 for the 1.5 years I've been playing it and I really though it was a balanced game, especially after they fixed some of the overpowered LMGs. It's not perfect, but things like balance seem to even out over time in games like these, either by patching or by player etiquette and conventions.