Author Topic: A WoD dev blog  (Read 177714 times)

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Offline Lorric

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EDIT: I mean, jesus, I was able to link you nearly 20 minutes of compiled Itano Circus scenes stretching across something close to thirty years of anime, almost NONE of which involve people getting taken out like punks. (Otherwise we'd have forty minutes from Macross alone.)

That this took me under twenty seconds should probably have been significant. You had all that you could have needed to educate yourself on how much meaning this particular behavior has to the people who made and who love this mod right at your fingertips. I literally gave you a living history of why the Itano Circus is coming and why nobody is going to listen to your objections so you should probably just let it go. And you waved it off with "Yeah, stuff blowing stuff up with missiles."

And you now wish to plead ignorance of why this trope is significant to Wings of Dawn, and demand politeness and respect. You could have educated yourself, and you could have earned politeness and respect. You chose not to.

Reap the whirlwind.

Doesn't help when I don't know what it is you're showing me exactly. Missed that edit btw.

Why should I educate myself? Wings of Dawn is all that matters. I also quite like not knowing in a way. I feel it will enhance the experience.

(EDIT: This late edit is for anyone reading this. The statement "Why should I educate myself" looks pretty damning on me. It is not an attitude I take towards things in general, I just said it because I didn't feel I need an intimate knowledge of Spoon's inspirations to enjoy his mod, especially when someone is just basically demanding it of me.)

You're also missing something. That video is all anime. Wings of Dawn is a game. It's not the same. An anime is scripted. And it is designed to be watched, not played. The question is whether the game can incorporate it and be fun. It is a game first and foremost, anime influenced second.

Ah, you think like Battuta. I don't understand that mindset. Why do you feel that way? Nobody has to earn the right to basic manners and respect with me. Who are you to demand such things of people?

Lorric, Wings of Dawn clearly uses a lot of anime tropes, most notably missiles of doom.  The Dragonslave and Heaven's Fire are proof of that, and Spoon has already tried to do an Itano Circus in his mod with his various autonomous fire-and-forget swarm missiles.  You must not have used the Hazel and the heavy swarm missiles in the mission where you have to defend the Prometheus Frame, because that would have certainly told you Spoon fully intends to allow us to fire Macross Missile Massacres.  And, oddly enough, you're complaining about a nerfing to these missile barrages because they now require an aspect lock?

Correct. You can even find me saying this somewhere around here, I think it might be in my campaign thread, stating that bomber was never used, and Spoon corrected me about that mission. I also theorised it wasn't included because it was overpowered.

I think there's been a crossed wire there. I was saying it's better to need to get a lock with a missile for it to home in than just fire it off and it homes in itself.

EDIT: I was also referring to missiles in general, not Spoon's work specifically.

I like the Zy swarm missiles btw. Because they're not too fast, or too powerful, you can shoot them down, and then when the initial wave is cleared, it's into standard dogfighting because the Zy missile bank is quite limited. I also like saving allies by shooting those missiles down. And I also like the big missile launches for capship to capship combat. The Cyrvans I feel their weapons are overpowered, but you rarely saw Cyrvans anyway, so it was okay. Used in moderation, I will be perfectly happy.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 11:36:27 am by Lorric »

 

Offline Lorric

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And you now wish to plead ignorance of why this trope is significant to Wings of Dawn, and demand politeness and respect. You could have educated yourself, and you could have earned politeness and respect. You chose not to.
Isn't it sad we live in times when politeness is something that needs to be earned? In my grandfather's time, such simple things were pretty much granted. It's a shame people can't just be nice to each other like they once were. Don't worry, I know very well who is to blame.


It is.

And perhaps this is part of why we seem to get along well, Dragon. It is a pleasure to converse with you. What do you mean by "Don't worry, I know very well who is to blame." ?

Are you referring to NGTM-1R, or something else about today's culture?

  

Offline NGTM-1R

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Why should I educate myself?

What the hell, man. If you are going to state outright that you have no interest in forming a coherent and rational argument (which requires educating yourself about the issues involved), then you might as well declare "I AM THE NEXT LIBERATOR/KAZAN/TRASHMAN PLZ BAN NOW".

Who are you to demand such things of people?

Ah, you've got it completely backwards. You think you never had it. I'm saying you lost it. Arguably, long before this, but in this particular case, as I said, you were given the tools to understand why the Itano Circus is a deeply beloved part of the things Wings of Dawn pays tribute to, and hence why it will be a part of Wings of Dawn if at all possible.

You refused to use them. In so doing, you lost whatever claim to respect or politeness you previously had, by showing that you are uninterested in understanding the issues being discussed and that anything you have to say is uneducated white noise. That you don't understand why you should educate yourself on the issues being discussed if you wish to be taken seriously in the discussion is also pretty good evidence that nobody should bother to treat your contributions with anything but derision. Willful ignorance can not be defended. (I'm sure Dragon will try, regardless.)

Since you admit everything you have to say on the subject is born of your deliberate failure to understand this discussion, you admit that you've just wasted everyone's time and nobody should bother to pay attention, save perhaps to point and laugh.
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Offline Lorric

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Why should I educate myself?

What the hell, man. If you are going to state outright that you have no interest in forming a coherent and rational argument (which requires educating yourself about the issues involved), then you might as well declare "I AM THE NEXT LIBERATOR/KAZAN/TRASHMAN PLZ BAN NOW".

Who are you to demand such things of people?

Ah, you've got it completely backwards. You think you never had it. I'm saying you lost it. Arguably, long before this, but in this particular case, as I said, you were given the tools to understand why the Itano Circus is a deeply beloved part of the things Wings of Dawn pays tribute to, and hence why it will be a part of Wings of Dawn if at all possible.

You refused to use them. In so doing, you lost whatever claim to respect or politeness you previously had, by showing that you are uninterested in understanding the issues being discussed and that anything you have to say is uneducated white noise. That you don't understand why you should educate yourself on the issues being discussed if you wish to be taken seriously in the discussion is also pretty good evidence that nobody should bother to treat your contributions with anything but derision. Willful ignorance can not be defended. (I'm sure Dragon will try, regardless.)

Wrong. I am talking about the anime influence as a whole. I am not completely uninterested either. Without knowing, I get to look at Wings of Dawn just as Wings of Dawn, and nothing else. No standards or expectations to meet. I watched two animes due to Wings of Dawn (see the soundtrack thread I made). I've also googled a multitude of new words due to the threads on here.

Look, I understand what it is paying tribute to, sort of anyway. I watched the video between all this. I've always known it is anime influenced. But what I care about most is what Wings of Dawn itself is. Not where the creator got their motivations from. The bottom line, Spoon's stuff is original. He was influenced by other sources, but aren't we all? I don't need an understanding of anime or even Star Control 2 or anything to understand Spoon's World.

If I am to be educated on these issues, I'd rather let WoD do it for me, by making me want to learn about them, as it did in the Soundtrack Thread. And those words I was curious about. No one told me to do any of that, and I enjoyed watching both animes. Not to meet your standards, which you insist I must meet, while simultaneously brushing aside my standards on how you should treat people. So why should I do what you want me to do, when you refuse to do what I want you to do?

So what terrible thing did I do to lose the right to the basic respect you give to a stranger?

 

Offline Droid803

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You don't like missile spam.
The rest of us like missile spam [because we understand the trope from which it comes from].
Spoon likes missile spam too - he specifically requested that Swifty add it in to FSO.
Therefore, WoD will have missile spam.

I don't get what's the argument here. If you're really a fan of just WoD and nothing else then at least you should have faith that Spoon is capable of making missile spam fun. If you're not even going to give him the benefit of doubt, nobody is forcing you to follow the development or to play the mod. Seeing as you don't seem interested in putting in the basic time and effort to understand why most of us like what we're seeing, you're not going to convince anyone so you might as well just shut up and leave.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 08:31:39 pm by Droid803 »
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Offline Lorric

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You don't like missile spam.
The rest of us like missile spam [because we understand the trope from which it comes from].
Spoon likes missile spam too - he specifically requested that Swifty add it in to FSO.
Therefore, WoD will have missile spam.

I don't get what's the argument here. If you're really a fan of just WoD and nothing else then at least you should have faith that Spoon is capable of making missile spam fun. If you're not even going to give him the benefit of doubt, nobody is forcing you to follow the development or to play the mod. Seeing as you don't seem interested in putting in the basic time and effort to understand why most of us like what we're seeing, you're not going to convince anyone so you might as well just shut up and leave.

I don't know what fairly tale land you and dragon come from, but where I come from respect is earned, and you start that by not being a willfully ignorant asshat. Your respect from me as a stranger was lost the moment you said

Quote
Why should I educate myself? ... I also quite like not knowing in a way. I feel it will enhance the experience.

Because that pretty much invalidates absolutely every argument you have, and will ever make.

Actually, I do have faith in Spoon. But I have just as much right to voice my opinion as anyone else.

Again, why should I? I watched the video. It doesn't do anything for me. I don't think it's bad, not at all, but it's nothing more than two or three steps up from meh to me.

I don't think you understand what I mean by that. It's not as if I didn't watch the video. And I looked up Itano Circus as well btw. I would recommend viewing what I have said in the soundtrack thread, it sheds some light on my feelings towards this. This is not wilful ignorance, I have as much contempt for wilful ignorance as anyone.

I have thought of you before you arrived. You are the third person. You're a bit different though. NGTM-1R is insulting. Battuta is condescending. And you are doubting and assuming in a negative way. So what, am I going to get treated worse than before by you as well now?

 

Offline Droid803

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I don't know man. The whole "this is horrible it's going to be unfun and ruin all skill required in WoD" vibe I get from your posts is quite "doubting and assuming in a negative way", at least as much as I am.

Not everything has to deliver rich and meaningful gameplay. If it does, great! If it doesn't well, so as long as it's visually appealing and not all there is it's totally fine too. I play FSO for the visceral appeal of stuff exploding everywhere as much as I do for gameplay, or for story. At times perhaps more so. A bit of MICHAEL BAY never hurt anyone (except whoever exploded I guess), it's just eyecandy, enjoy the fireworks a bit, man! (or if you can't, can you at least let the rest of us enjoy it?)
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 09:06:49 pm by Droid803 »
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I think everyone needs to take a few chill pills around here. This is one of the silliest and most pointless arguments I've seen on this site.

Lorric doesn't particularly like missile spam. Fine. He's entitled to his own opinion. Whether he is correct in his opinion that this will be to the detriment of the gameplay remains to be seen because the mod is not playable yet.

NGTM-1R shows an example of why missile spam is a long-standing legacy of anime works, and Lorric isn't convinced. For some reason, NGTM-1R is personally insulted by this.

That's all I see going on here. I request that both of you knock it off and let this thread get back to discussing an awesome mod. I love Macross and epic missile spam as much as the next mecha otaku, but this argument isn't going anywhere.

(And just so we're clear, this is aimed at BOTH of you, Lorric and NGTM-1R, equally.)
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?" -DEATH, Discworld

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Offline NGTM-1R

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So you completely missed the part where Lorric admits he has no interest in actually having a reasoned discussion and he's trolling. Got it!

Seriously, he's said openly he has no interest in learning about anything he's talking about and that he sees no reason he should ever have to, and you're going to blame me for reacting to him as a troll? He's said he's a troll and he's wasting everyone's time. He's said he doesn't understand what's going on and doesn't want to understand what's going on.

Lorric admits freely all he's done is **** up the thread pointlessly.

And you're going to blame me when he was doing it long before I got here.

Get the **** out.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 09:13:15 pm by NGTM-1R »
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Offline Lorric

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I don't know man. The whole "this is horrible it's going to be unfun and ruin all skill required in WoD" vibe I get from your posts is quite "doubting and assuming in a negative way", at least as much as I am.

Hmm, that's interesting, you agree with my assessment of you, I'm quite surprised, even though it's true and obvious.

I was referring to what is in Spoon's video only. I don't know if you've read the whole escalation of the thread, but I've showed I'm quite open to the concept of masses of missiles being fired off in certain situations, and indeed like some instances of it in the current WoD.

In Spoon's vid, we've got Zy fighters getting taken out with one missile in which a huge number are being fired all locking on to seperate targets. That is hugely imbalanced. I made a suggestion on how it could still get into the game and be okay.

Ah, I see the second part of your message. In my review of WoD, I talk about how I marvel at how much explosive power can end up on the screen at once without everything just dying. If Spoon can keep that feel, I'll be loving every minute of it.

I think everyone needs to take a few chill pills around here. This is one of the silliest and most pointless arguments I've seen on this site.

Lorric doesn't particularly like missile spam. Fine. He's entitled to his own opinion. Whether he is correct in his opinion that this will be to the detriment of the gameplay remains to be seen because the mod is not playable yet.

NGTM-1R shows an example of why missile spam is a long-standing legacy of anime works, and Lorric isn't convinced. For some reason, NGTM-1R is personally insulted by this.

That's all I see going on here. I request that both of you knock it off and let this thread get back to discussing an awesome mod. I love Macross and epic missile spam as much as the next mecha otaku, but this argument isn't going anywhere.

(And just so we're clear, this is aimed at BOTH of you, Lorric and NGTM-1R, equally.)

I agree with your assessment. I was confused before, but I think you're right, he is offended for some reason that I'm not interested.

So you completely missed the part where Lorric admits he has no interest in actually having a reason discussion and he's trolling. Got it!

Seriously, he's said openly he has no interest in learning about anything he's talking about and that he sees no reason he should ever have to, and you're going to blame me for reacting to him as a troll? He's said he's a troll and he's wasting everyone's time.

I did not. It's your problem if you don't understand what I'm saying/believe me.

 

Offline Lorric

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Oh you've put more. But you couldn't be more wrong. Why would I troll the mod I love and am making a campaign for? I don't even know how you got to this.

 

Offline Droid803

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That is hugely imbalanced. I made a suggestion on how it could still get into the game and be okay.

How can you tell it is hugely imbalanced without understanding the context? You even give a suggestion as to how to balance (which, ironically, is based on context), but in doing so you're already assuming a context from a tech demonstration? By doing that you clearly are doubting Spoon's ability to balance despite your declaration of the opposite...

I do not believe you are in a position to make either statement. Your panic is premature.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 09:23:06 pm by Droid803 »
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Offline NGTM-1R

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I did not. It's your problem if you don't understand what I'm saying/believe me.

Quote
Why should I educate myself?

I'm not surprised you don't understand what it means when you say that, despite having two separate people explain it to you. Perhaps you should ponder why this comment reduces everything you say to a waste of everyone's time and pure trolling, and return to this thread when you understand why.

Indeed, it would probably do you good to consider your wording far more carefully, and if you cannot understand why that is (and why it is constantly getting you in trouble with me/Droid/Sparda/basically everyone), you should probably stop talking until you can. Rather than repeatedly making a fool of yourself on scale seldom seen here.
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Offline Lorric

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That is hugely imbalanced. I made a suggestion on how it could still get into the game and be okay.

How can you tell it is hugely imbalanced without understanding the context? You even give a suggestion as to how to balance (which, ironically, is based on context), but in doing so you're already assuming a context from a tech demonstration? By doing that you clearly are doubting Spoon despite your declaration of the opposite...

I do not believe you are in a position to make either statement.

I don't mean purely in terms of level balance. Throw in enough enemies, and it would be a balanced mission.

The Terrans have nowhere near that power. It reduces the Zy from a great, spacefaring race to fodder.

Now sure, maybe they have the weapon too. But then Spoon's armour system and ship tactics and diversity all go up in smoke. Remember, we already have a WoD1. It's not as if we have nothing to go on. The same ships will still be used. The same universe.

It doesn't have to be black and white. I can have faith in Spoon to make it work, yet still question what I see.

I did not. It's your problem if you don't understand what I'm saying/believe me.

Quote
Why should I educate myself?

I'm not surprised you don't understand what it means when you say that, despite having two separate people explain it to you. Perhaps you should ponder why this comment reduces everything you say to a waste of everyone's time and pure trolling, and return to this thread when you understand why.

Indeed, it would probably do you good to consider your wording far more carefully, and if you cannot understand why that is (and why it is constantly getting you in trouble with me/Droid/Sparda/basically everyone), you should probably stop talking until you can. Rather than repeatedly making a fool of yourself on scale seldom seen here.

There is no everyone. You're doing it again, like you did when you spoke for everyone about wanting missile spam in the game.

You are the one if anyone who looks a fool now. Raging like an idiot. Lashing out at people. You took that line and applied it to me as if it applies to everything I do, when I was merely applying it to this one instance. And using it for clarity, rather than asking "Why should I do what you tell me to do?" Yes, tell, not ask.

 

Offline Droid803

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That is hugely imbalanced. I made a suggestion on how it could still get into the game and be okay.

How can you tell it is hugely imbalanced without understanding the context? You even give a suggestion as to how to balance (which, ironically, is based on context), but in doing so you're already assuming a context from a tech demonstration? By doing that you clearly are doubting Spoon despite your declaration of the opposite...

I do not believe you are in a position to make either statement.

I don't mean purely in terms of level balance. Throw in enough enemies, and it would be a balanced mission.

The Terrans have nowhere near that power. It reduces the Zy from a great, spacefaring race to fodder.

Now sure, maybe they have the weapon too. But then Spoon's armour system and ship tactics and diversity all go up in smoke. Remember, we already have a WoD1. It's not as if we have nothing to go on. The same ships will still be used. The same universe.

>Implying anything shown in that video is representative of the universe.

You have no ****ing clue what a tech demo is, do you?

Let me spell it out for you:
You wouldn't be complaining if those were cargo pods, and if that was a Prometheus Frame launching the missiles, would you? The entire point of that was to show we can have multi-aspect lock. The exact details are irrelevant, we will have multi-aspect lock missiles in WoD, exact details subject to change without notice.

EDIT: I'm going to stay out of the trolling scuffle.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 10:01:49 pm by Droid803 »
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Offline Legate Damar

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ITT: People need to grow thicker skins.

Also, Lorric is going to HATE my mod...

 

Offline Lorric

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That is hugely imbalanced. I made a suggestion on how it could still get into the game and be okay.

How can you tell it is hugely imbalanced without understanding the context? You even give a suggestion as to how to balance (which, ironically, is based on context), but in doing so you're already assuming a context from a tech demonstration? By doing that you clearly are doubting Spoon despite your declaration of the opposite...

I do not believe you are in a position to make either statement.

I don't mean purely in terms of level balance. Throw in enough enemies, and it would be a balanced mission.

The Terrans have nowhere near that power. It reduces the Zy from a great, spacefaring race to fodder.

Now sure, maybe they have the weapon too. But then Spoon's armour system and ship tactics and diversity all go up in smoke. Remember, we already have a WoD1. It's not as if we have nothing to go on. The same ships will still be used. The same universe.

>Implying anything shown in that video is representative of the universe.

You have no ****ing clue what a tech demo is, do you?

There is no everyone.

I present to you, exhibit A:

that was awesome.
Yus Plz.
Best. Ever.
Of All Time.
Of All Time.
indeed.

q.e.d.

I know what a tech demo is. This is all out of proportion. He just put it in the thread and I called it like I saw it.

As for the second part, yes they like it. But do they want it to become a main part of the game?

ITT: People need to grow thicker skins.

Also, Lorric is going to HATE my mod...

Scaly, Cardassian skin? No thanks  :lol:

 

Offline Zacam

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I'm going to go with Dark Hunter on this and write out a prescription for everybody to take 2 chill pills and call me in the morning.

If that doesn't work, I have other alternatives. Don't make me quote David Banner from the Incredible Hulk.

That being said, as an individual player of the WoD series, I think we should actually wait and see WHERE and HOW said Itano Circus gambit gets used. Once or twice, within the properly arrangement and context, would sell the feature rather well. And even if it's "All Itano, all the Time!" so what? If that's not your thing that won't change any current version that people are currently playing, and its not like it can't be updated/changed/refined or anything else even post-release. I think Spoon is -highly- aware of his universe and where he wants to put whatever he feels like. Whether or not anybody else happens to agree with it is irrelevant. It will either be your cup of tea and you'll drink it, or it wont be and you can say "Thanks anyway".

In short, while I can understand the 'concern' to some extent (I wouldn't be a big fan of "All Itano, all the Time" campaign) it seems obvious to me that IF such a campaign occurred, I have the option of simply not playing it. Doesn't mean I can't still praise it or the work that went into it and provide constructive criticism that is focused on understanding that such a display is said campaigns primary principle for existence. But the real factor here is that: It's a feature for a function that we haven't even seen how it will be employed yet, so save the concerns and the worries about 'balance' until such a time as IT actually becomes present, if it even manifests at all as being an issue.
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Offline Legate Damar

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Scaly, Cardassian skin? No thanks  :lol:

You should consider it, it would be a significant improvement

 

Offline Lorric

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I'm going to go with Dark Hunter on this and write out a prescription for everybody to take 2 chill pills and call me in the morning.

If that doesn't work, I have other alternatives. Don't make me quote David Banner from the Incredible Hulk.

That being said, as an individual player of the WoD series, I think we should actually wait and see WHERE and HOW said Itano Circus gambit gets used. Once or twice, within the properly arrangement and context, would sell the feature rather well. And even if it's "All Itano, all the Time!" so what? If that's not your thing that won't change any current version that people are currently playing, and its not like it can't be updated/changed/refined or anything else even post-release. I think Spoon is -highly- aware of his universe and where he wants to put whatever he feels like. Whether or not anybody else happens to agree with it is irrelevant. It will either be your cup of tea and you'll drink it, or it wont be and you can say "Thanks anyway".

In short, while I can understand the 'concern' to some extent (I wouldn't be a big fan of "All Itano, all the Time" campaign) it seems obvious to me that IF such a campaign occurred, I have the option of simply not playing it. Doesn't mean I can't still praise it or the work that went into it and provide constructive criticism that is focused on understanding that such a display is said campaigns primary principle for existence. But the real factor here is that: It's a feature for a function that we haven't even seen how it will be employed yet, so save the concerns and the worries about 'balance' until such a time as IT actually becomes present, if it even manifests at all as being an issue.


Yes, I agree with every word of all of this.

Scaly, Cardassian skin? No thanks  :lol:

You should consider it, it would be a significant improvement

But everyone would stare at me...

Is there anything special about that skin, or are you just being Damar?