Author Topic: I need a radio astronomer  (Read 3866 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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I need a radio astronomer
How would you define and describe a radio signal from near or within the solar system, omnidirectional, very complex and containing intricate but not necessarily artificial patterns? Invent a notional signal that could meet these parameters. You don't need to worry about a source, but it would be nice if it could be mistaken for something natural.

 

Offline Lucika

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Re: I need a radio astronomer
Snuffleupagus. :P
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: I need a radio astronomer
"weird"
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Re: I need a radio astronomer
I don't think that there are many natural omnidirectional signals.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: I need a radio astronomer
I don't think there are many omnidirectional signals that come from a local point... unless you are inside the transmitter.
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Offline Topgun

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Re: I need a radio astronomer
I don't think there are many omnidirectional signals that come from a local point... unless you are inside the transmitter.

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Offline Mika

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Re: I need a radio astronomer
What does "omnidirectional" mean in this context?

As in the source is emitting to the whole solid angle, or that the receiver sees the whole solid angle?

I would guess source emitting to the whole solid angle, but need to confirm this.

EDIT: Also do you need a mathematical description of that kind of signal?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2011, 03:57:31 pm by Mika »
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Offline watsisname

Re: I need a radio astronomer
Well I notice your main question is asking us to "describe and define" the radio emission, with less focus on the nature of the source itself.

I'm not quite sure what sort of answer you are looking for.

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Re: I need a radio astronomer
How would you define and describe a radio signal from near or within the solar system, omnidirectional, very complex and containing intricate but not necessarily artificial patterns? Invent a notional signal that could meet these parameters. You don't need to worry about a source, but it would be nice if it could be mistaken for something natural.

I dunno.

How about an intrasolar mosaic beam composed of fenestrated stellar radiation?


 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: I need a radio astronomer
What does "omnidirectional" mean in this context?

As in the source is emitting to the whole solid angle, or that the receiver sees the whole solid angle?

I would guess source emitting to the whole solid angle, but need to confirm this.

Yes, source emitting at the whole solid angle.

I need good convincing-sounding technical terminology that you might hear between a couple radio astronomers, though perfect fidelity isn't necessary. If the question's too broad, think of it this way: I would like it to be a signal which would draw attention as something very weird, but which would not bear any unmistakable marks of artificial origin.

This might be too stupid and broad, and if so I apologize.

 
Re: I need a radio astronomer
A pulsar or rotating black hole might do it.

Here's a glossary of radio astronomy terms.

http://images.nrao.edu/glossary.shtml

 

Offline IronBeer

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Re: I need a radio astronomer
How would you define and describe a radio signal from near or within the solar system, omnidirectional, very complex and containing intricate but not necessarily artificial patterns? Invent a notional signal that could meet these parameters. You don't need to worry about a source, but it would be nice if it could be mistaken for something natural.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: I need a radio astronomer
How would you define and describe a radio signal from near or within the solar system, omnidirectional, very complex and containing intricate but not necessarily artificial patterns? Invent a notional signal that could meet these parameters. You don't need to worry about a source, but it would be nice if it could be mistaken for something natural.

The magnetospheres of planets tend to produce pretty interesting radio signals with intricate but not artificial patterns. Magnetospheres of gas giants tend to produce a lot of such signals, being so big.

Examples here:

Jupiter
Saturn
Earth
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: I need a radio astronomer
I was using Jupiter's magnetosphere as a placeholder; maybe I should hold on to that.

 

Offline watsisname

Re: I need a radio astronomer
Some ideas to consider:

-What is the frequency of the signal?
-What is the peak intensity?
-Any type of modulation (eg, amplitude modulated?)
-Is it a point source or diffuse?
-Location (right ascension, declination.  Galactic coordinates are also often used for radio sources.)
-Any proper motion?  (Rate at which source moves relative to background stars).
-Parallax?  (apparent change in position over 6 month period due to earth's orbital motion).  I'm not sure though if this works for radio sources, I only know of its use for stellar objects, as the exact position of a star is much easier to determine IIRC.

If the source is freely orbiting our own sun then you would expect to see high proper motion, and over a short period of time (weeks to months) you could determine its orbit.  If its much farther out then this would be difficult (if the signal does not correspond to a visible entity like a star or galaxy) and would require some intuition on how strong is the source, given its characteristics, compared to how strong is the signal you are receiving.

I don't know enough on radio astronomy to go into much more detail than this, but perhaps you may find the following APJ article useful:
http://iopscience.iop.org/1538-4357/660/2/L121/pdf/1538-4357_660_2_L121.pdf
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Offline Mika

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Re: I need a radio astronomer
Quote
Yes, source emitting at the whole solid angle.

I need good convincing-sounding technical terminology that you might hear between a couple radio astronomers, though perfect fidelity isn't necessary. If the question's too broad, think of it this way: I would like it to be a signal which would draw attention as something very weird, but which would not bear any unmistakable marks of artificial origin.

This might be too stupid and broad, and if so I apologize.

I think this is a rather good question. It is not easy to answer though. Here's some thoughts, maybe it gives some body else ideas.

I had to browse through some faint distant memories of how does a radio telescope actually see something. The antenna collects radiation, and the signal is then amplified and processed, either by analogical or digital means. The processing can either use amplitude modulation or frequency modulation, and both have their own acceptable bandwidths; the filtering can be done digitally or analogically, and they remove the higher or lower frequency components from the signal - while the antennae length will also do some preselecting. I would guess that there are multiple stages in the signal processing, where the signal is modulated and multiplexed to different frequencies. The above is valid for a single measurement, the bandpass filters would likely kill the signals outside the frequency spectrum. This means that the telescope is not able to detect signals that are outside it's operating bandwidth, they don't exist in the measurement result. But this doesn't limit measurement results that are collected over time, there could still be some signals with much lower frequencies with sufficient amplitudes can be seen there (more on this later) that work by some other mechanism that is visible within this wavelength range.

I would expect radio telescope beam widths to be comparatively narrow, which means that the source that emits the signal should be within the telescope field of view. There is a possibility of the signal of entering the telescope through some side lobes (it's hard to get rid of these in radio frequencies), but the signal strength would likely need to be rather high, which would mean that there is a high probability that the source would then be directly in the field of view of some other telescope. It would be seen as rather bright, and would likely lead to quick detection. I then thought that if those telescopes were ground based, atmosphere could distort the signal partially. Unfortunately this doesn't happen (much) with radio waves. If the signal suddenly disappeared in certain wavelength, that would likely be detected immediately, but it would be very difficult to say what was wrong. The first thing those poor guys would do would be to check, verify and recalibrate the instrument. In order to make signal disappear or considerably weaken it by a destructive interference; it would require some knowledge of the signals that the telescope sees if it weren't interfered - or pure coincidence, but that's far fetching.

Then, (you might want to verify this),  I have a faint memory that there might exist some periodical signals coming from the sun within certain intervals. At least I recall seeing this in incoherent scattering radar measurement data, though it never became clear to me if this was just some coincidence for that particular time, or whether there really are this kind of cycles. Nor did the source of such a signal ever become apparent to me, but I didn't investigate much further than reporting it to the assistant back then. But if such cycles really exist, could the signal slightly alter it, or be very close in frequency and in phase so that it would take time to see those two signals to go out of phase?

Sources for signals that the radio telescopes see should be rather large (in order of metres), the wavelength of the radiation depends on the size of the source. I was thinking of a charged comet, or a comet that has an antennae in it with a weak transmitting power? Or there could be polarization modulation in the signal, I don't know whether polarization modulation is detectable by current instruments. The instrument would likely then see a new signal, and decrease of the new signal when the moving object is outside the FOV. Finding the source of the signal again could be difficult, if it was small and moving.

EDIT: Redefinition of some parts
EDIT^2: Added some details in the text
EDIT^3: Crap, this starts to take my sleeping time. Moving faint object needs some additional data to be written there.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2011, 06:03:10 pm by Mika »
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Offline Nuke

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Re: I need a radio astronomer
an artificial signal from within the solar system would need to be somewhat focused and directed to make the distances involved in even intra-solar communications. a broadcast type transmission would be quite odd indeed, since it would need to be way more powerful than a directed signal to have the same kind of range. so a very powerful broadcast from within the system would be very strange.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2011, 06:05:34 pm by Nuke »
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Offline headdie

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Re: I need a radio astronomer
Sources for signals that the radio telescopes see should be rather large (in order of metres), the wavelength of the radiation depends on the size of the source. I was thinking of a charged comet, or a comet that has an antennae in it with a weak transmitting power? Or there could be polarization modulation in the signal, I don't know whether polarization modulation is detectable by current instruments.

I did wonder about something like a rogue comet with a high iron or other magnetic material core, i suppose it would depend on how predictable the existence of the signal would be for example a magnetosphere's output would be of a predictable strength where as an unexpected signal/signal change would probably require the presence an uncharted source possibly from outside the system
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: I need a radio astronomer
an artificial signal from within the solar system would need to be somewhat focused to make the distances involved in even intra-solar communications. a broadcast type transmission would be quite odd indeed, since it would need to be way more powerful than a directed signal to have the same kind of range.

Exactly.

Mika, thank you, that was a good read. If it's not too much bother, what would you say if the recipient was a distributed antenna, as in radio interferometry?

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: I need a radio astronomer
i think one thing something like seti really misses is that we still pretty much stick to the basics of radio transmission (fcc pretty much makes sure of that). transmissions are keyed to a carrier wave of a singular frequency or a singular amplitude. typically we just add the data (analog or digital) to known simple carrier wave (usually just a simple sine wave) of a specific frequency. but if you look at lots of technology that uses rf signals, like wifi or military grade systems, anything where security is a concern, the data are scattered on a multitude of frequencies (spread spectrum) so that anyone listening to any of those frequencies will just hear unintelligible gibberish. without having all the information about that signal, its impossible to read the transmission. but its still just using basic carrier channels, so its possible to know there is traffice because you have a bunch of waves active simultaneously.

now my concern is that: what if there was a more subtle way to communicate over rf frequencies without tipping off someone that youre doing it? such a transmission would be a great military asset and would likely be developed at some point in a civilizations tech tree. im thinking something like a fractal carrier wave that changes form as a function of time. such a signal would sound like space noise. anyone who knows the parameters for the carrier wave can key it into the demodulator and receive the data it carries. you might detect the source of the signal if it was powerful, so a space military would try to mask the signal from know enemies by hiding the signal in the shadow of a star, and then transmitting in intermittent bursts to appear as if the signal was a solar flare to anyone who wasnt looking for it. now this is all scifi since im not sure if such a carrier wave is feasible in the real world. it makes you think, if theres a way to subtly send rf signals, it will at some point be discovered and applied.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2011, 06:50:20 pm by Nuke »
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