[General Battuta]

I can't think of a single ship that meets those standards.

[NGTM-1R]

I can't think of a single ship that meets those standards.

Most corvettes can sustain an LRed or two and run away.

More generally, most cruisers can take a Cyclops salvo and run away still fairly intact.

[Destiny]

The GTVA-

...nothing, nothing. What the Shivans have is numbers. If you could churn out enough AWACSes for every ship squadron to use, I could potentially see Shivan beams missing. But on the other hand when that fragile AWACS goes kaboom...they should just rip the rotating domes off and stick them on Hecates or Raynors something already. I'm willing to bet if the rotating dome was placed correctly the Raynor'll get more points in looking cool.

[General Battuta]

I can't think of a single ship that meets those standards.

Most corvettes can sustain an LRed or two and run away.

More generally, most cruisers can take a Cyclops salvo and run away still fairly intact.

And all the ships in contention can survive a few volleys of primary/secondary fire and run away.

If they get to work in the niche they're good in, they'll do well. If a bigger, badder ship turns up, there are things they can do about it. If those things don't work, they'll die. That's true of any design.

These ships would do a good job fighting Shivans in scenarios we've seen in the FreeSpace games. That's what makes them useful.

[Mars]

I can't think of a single scenario we've seen with the UEF where a light cruiser / warship would do well.

[NGTM-1R]

These ships would do a good job fighting Shivans in scenarios we've seen in the FreeSpace games. That's what makes them useful.

The problem is that you've created a class which will be hunted by the things that hunt cruisers, i.e. Shivan cruisers/corvettes and mobs of assault fighters, but which are less protected against those things, and you already admit that cruisers are not protected enough.

The bald assertion that they will do a good job does not make it true.

[General Battuta]

The problem is that you've created a class which will be hunted by the things that hunt cruisers, i.e. Shivan cruisers/corvettes and mobs of assault fighters, but which are less protected against those things, and you already admit that cruisers are not protected enough.

Cruisers can't physically evade assault fighters (and Hornet volleys) using flares and their drives, these little guys can.

The Custos uses rolling ECM for defense against beams when it's doing its torpedo-boat thing. The Custos and Cretheus alike would certainly be good targets for cruisers, but that's a good thing; everything should have interesting vulnerabilities to make for interesting gameplay.

They're not really meant for main combat on their own anyway, at least without traveling in packs. They're intended either for special situations where they're the biggest thing on the field, or to work with larger forces where they're either being ignored (and thus able to do their jobs) or drawing fire (and thus still doing their jobs). They also do well in numbers.

The bald assertion that they will do a good job does not make it true.

What a strange thing to say. It's as if we'd never any designed any missions with these ships, and thus we have to make bald assertions about how they perform, instead of informed statements based on our experience with them.

I'm going to agree with Axem that this whole discussion feels slightly silly. It's an argument based on nothing - nobody here except the developers have actually played with these ships, seen how they perform in the scenarios they're intended for, or tried to kill them.

[Destiny]

Some speculation is good, still...I believe so, anyway. Until the GTVA starts fielding ships with triple-barreled Long Range Flak turrets...reminds me, why HAVEN'T they?



Also...I kinda forgot the Hecate and Raynor were just simply massive and the domes are barely visible.

[NGTM-1R]

Cruisers can't physically evade assault fighters (and Hornet volleys) using flares and their drives, these little guys can.

So they're more sprightly than Posideons or Elysiums, but roughly the same size and much more heavily armed. (Because I've tried a couple times, and the Posideon struggles pretty hard.) That...sounds a little suspicious.

What a strange thing to say. It's as if we'd never any designed any missions with these ships, and thus we have to make bald assertions about how they perform, instead of informed statements based on our experience with them.

You also are personally invested in being correct on this, and have possibly designed the missions and the specs in such a way that they don't logically progress from existing frames of reference. It's quite possible that intentionally or unintentionally you've provided them plot armor, from where we're sitting.

[PsychoLandlord]

Actually, I have a question thats been bugging me for a while. With WiH we've seen a much greater emphasis on e-war, with the greatest expression of this being the ability to jam the firing solutions of GTVA beam weapons (but only those for whatever reason.) Now, the GTVA has been using e-war assets for quite a while, and while it was never really touched on in stock FS, BP has done a good job of fleshing out the little details.

My question is this - do GTVA e-war assets have the capability of interfering with Shivan operations? I would assume no, for a variety of reasons, such as, you know, alien technology we barely understand and all that, but a lot of newer GTVA vessels rely on these capabilities to be able to engage favorably, which seems like a it would be a moot point against the Shivans.  Not that its a bad idea to have advanced electronics on larger ships, obviously, I'm just wondering if this tech will have any practical applications against the enemy the GTVA is devoting it's existence to being afraid of.

[Nuclear1]

Well, Electronic Warfare as we know it is divided into three subcategories:  Electronic Attack, Electronic Support, and Electronic Protection.

EA is essentially the use of EM energy to cause harm to the enemy's ability to make war or do damage.  In Freespace, this comes in the form of the countermeasures you use against missiles, and in BP, the jamming of GTVA beam weapons and UEF torpedoes.  Terran and Vasudan communication frequencies are fairly easy to detect and exploit, but on the Shivan end, their equipment and technology is on a completely different level.  Maybe after the recovery of ETAK and additional research into Shivan technology, the GTVA will be able to analyze Shivan technology and find a way to attack their electronic systems and affect their weapons like the UEF and GTVA do with each other.

The GTVA has been using Electronic Support against its enemies for a long time; basically, ES involves intercepting communications and other signals emitted by enemy ships.  Tracking ships through subspace and intercepting enemy comms is the way the GTVA mostly uses ES.  They can already track Shivan vessels through subspace, from what we know, and can probably detect Shivan communications, though they probably have no idea what they mean.  Again, more research into ETAK might enhance this.

Electronic Protection is making allied units less vulnerable to enemy electronic warfare or countermeasures--such as improving missiles to make them less susceptible to countermeasures and controlling electronic emissions from allied ships (best manifested in stealth technology).  Improving EP for the GTVA would probably require a greater understanding of Shivan technology, but with stealth ships, they're already making some great strides.

[PsychoLandlord]

Yeah, I was referring to exclusively Electronic Attack options, since the other stuff was already present in Stock FS in any mission a Charybdis was around in.

So, question still stands - Electronic Attacks on Shivan Assets, can this be done by the GTVA currently?

[The E]

They would certainly like to know that, wouldn't they?

[Nuclear1]

So, question still stands - Electronic Attacks on Shivan Assets, can this be done by the GTVA currently?

I think they're happy not having Shivans to test it on...

[Destiny]

I'm curious though...since the GTVA knows that their beam turrets can be knocked out so easily, why don't they...cover them? Like missile silos. We've done variable geometry, look at the Kent.

jam the firing solutions of GTVA beam weapons

Wait till they make a LRBGreen version of the Ter/VSlash, hahaha.

[The E]

Because beam emitters, at least in BP canon, are really easy to replace. Also, note that the GTVA is rather aware of this problem, and is working on solutions for it.

[MatthTheGeek]

I'm going to agree with Axem that this whole discussion feels slightly silly. It's an argument based on nothing - nobody here except the developers have actually played with these ships, seen how they perform in the scenarios they're intended for, or tried to kill them.

Don't ! This discussion, while irrelevant in the sense that we lack data to really know what the capabilities of those new ships will be, is still an excellent exercise for us to familiarize with the BP combat environment and tactics. Personally, the more I think on this, the better HWBP can potentially become.

So, question still stands - Electronic Attacks on Shivan Assets, can this be done by the GTVA currently?

AFAIK, beam targeting has nothing to do with communications. Given that the GTVA beam tech is reverse-engineered from the Shivan one, I expect the UEF beam jamming to work on Shivan tech. Now we don't know if the GTVA has this tech too, since a Tev AWACS has never been pitted against a beam-equipped opponent in BP.

[The E]

The problem with the beam jamming is that the only reason the UEF can actually do that is because they had GTVA beam hardware to examine and a very long time to examine targeting emissions during combat. While the same is true of GTVA engineers and Shivan hardware, always keep in mind that the techroom strongly implies that the Shivans, for whatever reason, are fighting with one hand tied behind their back, and that the Shivans have a nasty habit of pulling more advanced tech out of their collective hats at the worst possible moment.
As always, the proof is in the pudding, as they say. Until a GTVA task force that has an AWACS platform goes into combat against a Shivan force, there is no way to know for sure.

[Nuclear1]

AFAIK, beam targeting has nothing to do with communications. Given that the GTVA beam tech is reverse-engineered from the Shivan one, I expect the UEF beam jamming to work on Shivan tech. Now we don't know if the GTVA has this tech too, since a Tev AWACS has never been pitted against a beam-equipped opponent in BP.

Beam targeting certainly doesn't involve external communication from the ship, no.

Doesn't mean the UEF can't launch an electronic attack on the GTVA targeting systems, launching periodic bursts of data to overload the networks. 

[Destiny]

How does the data overload an 'isolated' network? It's like being hacked by a hacker when your PC doesn't have any internet/network cables jacked in. I suppose the GTVA could just use a telescope or optical means to aim instead, but as it stands I think everyone's using radar which can be jammed, and missing beam shots.