[Destiny]

I could foresee the AWACSes vectoring them into the midst of enemy fighter and bomber swarms to rip the hell out of them. Like...a wing of Uriels sitting 3km away from a ship, sniping it...and BAM, FLAK KABOOM! Nah, I'm just dreaming. No way it'll work.

[PsychoLandlord]

I could foresee the AWACSes vectoring them into the midst of enemy fighter and bomber swarms to rip the hell out of them. Like...a wing of Uriels sitting 3km away from a ship, sniping it...and BAM, FLAK KABOOM! Nah, I'm just dreaming. No way it'll work.

Chances are it would be detected before it could gain any meaningful element of surprise. It might work the first time the ship is deployed, and therefore kill a few fighters, but after that, anytime the UEF detects a cruiser sized target about to jump in suspiciously close to a fighter formation, they'll know whats up.

[MatthTheGeek]

This Cretheos sounds iffy to me, at least as deployed in the Sol Theater. Like has been stated, its far too easy for an intelligent enemy to engineer the battle to his advantage once you've committed, and a vessel like the Cretheos seems like it would simply be torn apart by the UEF armory.

The problem is, if what you say was that much a tactical concern for the GTVA, then they wouldn't have deployed cruisers at all, since they have the exact same weaknesses. You see, the GTVA needs light anti-fighter and close escort platforms, which is why the Aeolus and Hyperion are still in production at all. They don't have enough corvettes for that tactical niche, and they would be a waste of useful anti-cap power if committed in that role anyway.

The Cretheus is a better filler for that niche, simply because it doesn't try to be a corvette, and doesn't waste a quarter or so of its crew and internal space on useless SGreens or SBlues. They're light, they're cheap, they do the job, and they're not gonna be mourned.

[PsychoLandlord]

Maybe. Truthfully, I disagree with cruisers in general, and If i were the GTVA, I would shift production of advanced fighter craft into overdrive and drown the UEF in said fighters, which I feel would be cheaper and more cost effective in the long run, given the nature of combat in FS, and in WiH especially.

But, I am not the GTVA, I'm just a dude who plays the game. And besides, the Cretheus would have an important role in combat with the Shivans. Every cruiser besides the Aeolus has been a failure in that regard, though I'm still not sure what to think of the Hyperion. It will be interesting the current GTVA fights a total war with the Shivans, assuming that scenario does end up coming to pass.

[Dragon]

Slammers tend to make mincemeat of large groups of fighters and Karunas are really effective against them, so swarming UEF with strikecraft may not work.

[PsychoLandlord]

Yes, but we've only seen those employed against on older generation strikecraft. I'm curious to see how well the newer ships like the Atalanta and Nyx would perform in large formations.

[Snail]

Yes, but we've only seen those employed against on older generation strikecraft. I'm curious to see how well the newer ships like the Atalanta and Nyx would perform in large formations.

Probably just as badly, Slammerspawn are basically impossible to evade. I've seen them make virtual 90 degree turns.

[The E]

A Slammer strike will always be highly effective against formations, especially with a human firing them, and triggering them for maximum effect.

[Scotty]

I'd be willing to bet that Slammers are significantly less effective against something like the Cretheus than against an equivalent (tactically) amount of fighters/bombers.  That, and used right, this thing could very well be instant fighter death in any scenario where it acheives surprise.  Even if it doesn't kill fighters, I'd be more than willing to bet that either A) fighters/bombers will gun for it simply to avoid horrendous losses when they DO go for capships, or B) fighters/bombers will get shredded by it if they ignore it.  Either way, it's a win/win for the formation using it.

[SpardaSon21]

A pair of Chimeras and some Cretheus escort would be a terrifying opponent for fighter formations.  If Serkr Team had some special Cretheus with maybe a AAA beam or two added to the group, taking them down would be far harder than it already is.

[Snail]

A pair of Chimeras and some Cretheus escort would be a terrifying opponent for fighter formations.  If Serkr Team had some special Cretheus with maybe a AAA beam or two added to the group, taking them down would be far harder than it already is.

Chimeras already have a veritable beam phalanx. Cretheuses would probably be better deployed in support of Deimoses...

[MatthTheGeek]

And besides, the Cretheus would have an important role in combat with the Shivans. Every cruiser besides the Aeolus has been a failure in that regard, though I'm still not sure what to think of the Hyperion. It will be interesting the current GTVA fights a total war with the Shivans, assuming that scenario does end up coming to pass.

The problem with the Hyperion is that it's a glorified Aeolus. It improves on all of its advantages but barely compensate for most of its weaknesses. The cruiser class is a relic from the Great War and is an awkward attempt to compensate between the anti-warship role, with a more than insufficient anti-capital weaponry, and light escort role with anti-fighter coverage but too vulnerable and requiring too many crew to be worth the unavoidable losses.

The Cretheus is an attempt from the GTVA to go away from this unsatisfactory compromise with a class fully dedicated to light escort duty with minimal crew, in order to optimise the efficiency of this required role while minimizing the unavoidable losses. Whether this attempt is successful or not, and against the Shivans or the UEF, is yet to be determined, and we don't know enough on the stats, armament, crew and cost of the Cretheus to make a faithful estimate.

One of the main issue with the current GTVA doctrine is that they need either a warship of at least Deimos class or waves of bombers to deal with the anti-capital role. Deimoses are good and cheap, but old and still not numerous enough for the GTVA to hold a sufficient pressure on the UEF, and bombers are just dead meat for the UEF. They would need a new, cheap heavy hitter to replace or complete the Deimos in the role cruisers can't handle, and that newer front-line corvettes are too few and expensive to take over.

[Snail]

Actually the Hyperion is worse in basically every way (that matters) to the Aeolus. Nowadays cruisers aren't even meant to be in the anti-capital role, so the Hyperion being better in that respect is basically irrelevant.

[NGTM-1R]

The Cretheus is a better filler for that niche, simply because it doesn't try to be a corvette, and doesn't waste a quarter or so of its crew and internal space on useless SGreens or SBlues. They're light, they're cheap, they do the job, and they're not gonna be mourned.

Which leads up to a point I've been wondering.

Why lighten the hull? Why not simply strip out the heavy weapons from an existing design and replace with more anti-fightercraft? We know that cruiser-sized ships are vulnerable to enemy attack with heavy weapons or assault fighter swarms, but they will generally last long enough to make it through a salvo and flee the field. Smaller hulls might not.

The PBR analogy Batts uses is a good one, but it misses the key point that the guys on the boats were top dog in their environment because it was too inaccessible to anybody who wasn't on a boat to drag heavy weapons. Accessibility is the major shaping factor in subspace-era tactics.

They could have a role as ablative flak shielding while in direct company of a heavily gunned ship like a Raynor or a Deimos, one that has good coverage from its heavy guns. But the war with the UEF is ultimately a sideshow and the GTVA can't afford to play attritional combat with the Shivans. 100-to-1 odds; anything less counts as a win for the Shivans.

So what will they do? Mothball the Cretheus after the war? Maybe the Cretheus is a stopgap design converted from some other use while they retool the Hyperion/Aeolus lines?

[General Battuta]

Cruisers aren't nimble enough. I've never really flown the Cretheus, but the Custos has the agility to dodge bombs while using its countermeasures, and something like an Aeolus doesn't.

[Mars]

The trouble is, there's no need for bombs. It sounds like the Terran equivalents of that Vishnan ship . . .

[Scotty]

Countermeasures means it can dodge missiles too.

[Mars]

It's things like Maxims, Gattlers, Archers, and Redeemers that make cruisers vulnerable. Now if ships start flying with anti-projectile armor (as has been mentioned) I guess it'd make more sense.

[Black Wolf]

They could have a role as ablative flak shielding while in direct company of a heavily gunned ship like a Raynor or a Deimos, one that has good coverage from its heavy guns. But the war with the UEF is ultimately a sideshow and the GTVA can't afford to play attritional combat with the Shivans. 100-to-1 odds; anything less counts as a win for the Shivans.

So what will they do? Mothball the Cretheus after the war? Maybe the Cretheus is a stopgap design converted from some other use while they retool the Hyperion/Aeolus lines?

Don't forget, the Shivans are unlikely to get rid of their cruisers any time soon. I can't speak for the Cretheus, but we have a similar light ship in TI (The Harpy) which is euipped with anti fighter weaponry only (3AAAfs, 2 flak, 2 Prom-S), lightly armoured, quick etc. etc. What they do well is engage cruisers in groups of three or more - they move fast enough that even a locked on beam can't track them for very long before they move out of the line of fire, and the hulls are so small that slashers tend to pass across them too fast to do any devastating damage. Against something like a Lilith, the key role is keeping the thing off balance, so it can't focus that damned LRed on your major capital ship, while your fighters are trying to defang it.

Another area small ships are valuable would be dealing with civvies -  things like customs fleets, policing, etc. - anywhere where you need enough force to stop someone from just ignoring you, but don't need the ability to wipe out Shivan capital ships. In BP, where cruisers are being phased out, and replaced with (presumably) lower numbers of larger ships, something small, light and above all cheap (both to manufacture and run) to fill these non-direct combat roles would be essential. If they then find some very specific uses in major ship to ship combat, so much the better.

[NGTM-1R]

Don't forget, the Shivans are unlikely to get rid of their cruisers any time soon. I can't speak for the Cretheus, but we have a similar light ship in TI (The Harpy) which is euipped with anti fighter weaponry only (3AAAfs, 2 flak, 2 Prom-S), lightly armoured, quick etc. etc. What they do well is engage cruisers in groups of three or more - they move fast enough that even a locked on beam can't track them for very long before they move out of the line of fire, and the hulls are so small that slashers tend to pass across them too fast to do any devastating damage. Against something like a Lilith, the key role is keeping the thing off balance, so it can't focus that damned LRed on your major capital ship, while your fighters are trying to defang it.

The discussion of civilian-herding applications is valid, but you're missing my point about the Cretheus against Shivans; the Shivans can afford to straight up lose three cruisers for each individual light cruiser and they'll still come out ahead in terms of attrition.

You have to construct a quality-vs.-quantity paradigm to fight the Shivans, in an environment where you must accept that overwhelming force can be brought to bear on you at any moment. The ability to survive a single salvo of heavy weapons and escape is absolutely critical to the usefulness of any platform that will be committed in wartime.