[Mustang19]

And yet, the vocabulary you use is straight out of the "everything was better in the past", "kids these days have no values" playbook. And you are not discussing anything, you are just assuming stuff without any facts to back you up.

Yeah, I've been laying off the Google. But although my position may have come off that way to you, I never said that Western Civilization was doomed or anything, just that increasing crime rates, reduced religiosity, lower savings rates, and so on were partially related to changes in cultural values.

[Marcov]

@Battuta Why.

[Grizzly]

just that increasing crime rates, reduced religiosity, lower savings rates, and so on were partially related to changes in cultural values.

That might be because those things basically ARE cultural.

[Mustang19]

Increasing individualism lessened the need for religion, reduced social stigma against crime, and made people less willing to defer current consumption for future consumption.

[Grizzly]

Increasing individualism lessened the need for religion, reduced social stigma against crime, and made people less willing to defer current consumption for future consumption.

How is lessened need for religion a bad thing? Why should it be a neccesity? What has it got to do with individualism, while there are many anti-individualism views which bash religion?
How can increased individualism lessen social stigma against crime, when crime is still bad for an individual as much as a group?
How is currnet consumption related to individualism, as individuals with to much current consumption can essentially kill themselves off just the same? Has it not always been as such?

I think he meant to say Marcov not Mustang

This sounds a bit weird, like you are bashing Marcov out of the sake of bashing marcov, he actually made decent points back there...

[General Battuta]

Increasing individualism lessened the need for religion, reduced social stigma against crime, and made people less willing to defer current consumption for future consumption.

That's a hypothesis but I don't think it's a substantiated one. Do you honestly think increasing collectivism would make those things better?

This sounds a bit weird, like you are bashing Marcov out of the sake of bashing marcov, he actually made decent points back there...

Because Marcov is like 12 and Mustang clearly isn't?

[The E]

If he wants to be a 12-year-old, then he should be treated like one. Including pointing out to him, in very simple language, that he is not yet ready for the world.

[Mustang19]

How can increased individualism lessen social stigma against crime, when crime is still bad for an individual as much as a group?

Crime is more often impulsive than rational. Social cohesion and community help reduce these impulses. Social control, strain, subcultural, etc. theories.

That's a hypothesis but I don't think it's a substantiated one. Do you honestly think increasing collectivism would make those things better?

can i cite the amish?

How is lessened need for religion a bad thing?

religion = better mental health according to here unless of course you consider religion to be a mental illness

How is currnet consumption related to individualism, as individuals with to much current consumption can essentially kill themselves off just the same? Has it not always been as such?

same with crime, savings as well as discipline are partly a learned behaviors. another explanation is that increasing prosperity made saving for catastrophic events (eg unemployment) less necessary.

[The E]

Religion, in and of itself, does not have much of an impact on mental health.

Being in a group of like-minded individuals, however, does. It doesn't matter if you're actively religious, or in a sports club, or just have a very good work atmosphere, if you are regularly engaged in group activities, your mental stability will increase.

same with crime, savings as well as discipline are partly a learned behaviors. another explanation is that increasing prosperity made saving for catastrophic events (eg unemployment) less necessary.

That's a very american argument.

[Marcov]

Because Marcov is like 12 and Mustang clearly isn't?

That's not the point. As I said, why? What makes you think Mustang would be older?

You have accepted the fact that you are, indeed, doing this for the simple fact that you want to stimulate your stereotypical attitude by repeatedly pointing out that I'm 12, which isn't contributing, in any manner, to the topic at hand.

The age bias that I see is going on here is plain crap. For one, how the **** should you shove someone away for the insane judgement that he's basically a little kid. Talk to an 80 year old and see how foolish he can be, if you get my point. You should never, ever, shove away one's argument just because of your belief that your adversary is a preteen.

This age bias should be swiftly removed from the argument at hand, before it starts stimulating flame wars. This is, by my judgement, a useless rant just to claim your victory over the debate.

Back on topic...

Also, Mustang, you haven't answered my question. Are you trying to say it was better back then, or it's better nowadays?

[Mustang19]

That's a very american argument.

that's a very german response.

Being in a group of like-minded individuals, however, does. It doesn't matter if you're actively religious, or in a sports club, or just have a very good work atmosphere, if you are regularly engaged in group activities, your mental stability will increase.

Certainly, it doesn't matter what you call it, social cohesion helps.

Also, Mustang, you haven't answered my question. Are you trying to say it was better back then, or it's better nowadays?

In terms of what? If you mean I'd rather be alive today, then it's better now.

[The E]

Because Marcov is like 12 and Mustang clearly isn't?

That's not the point. As I said, why? What makes you think Mustang would be older?

Because he is much more sophisticated than you?

You have accepted the fact that you are, indeed, doing this for the simple fact that you want to stimulate your stereotypical attitude by repeatedly pointing out that I'm 12, which isn't contributing, in any manner, to the topic at hand.

The age bias that I see is going on here is plain crap. For one, how the **** should you shove someone away for the insane judgement that he's basically a little kid. Talk to an 80 year old and see how foolish he can be, if you get my point. You should never, ever, shove away one's argument just because of your belief that your adversary is a preteen.

Actually, yes. If a 12 year old tries to lecture me about how much easier life today is, then the best he can hope for is to be laughed at. Because you lack experience in the matters which you discuss, simple as that.

This age bias should be swiftly removed from the argument at hand, before it starts stimulating flame wars. This is, by my judgement, a useless rant just to claim your victory over the debate.

Wrong. If you are too young to have first-hand experience of the topics, then you have no business spouting your opinions, because whatever you are thinking? It's almost certainly not correct.

that's a very german response.

Just saying that the things you talk about are not valid globally. And since this is an international community, well....

Certainly, it doesn't matter what you call it, social cohesion helps.

But using church attendance as a meterstick doesn't work, because it's only measuring one type of social activity. I submit to you that there are more things you can do with your time than go to church.

[General Battuta]

Because Marcov is like 12 and Mustang clearly isn't?

That's not the point. As I said, why? What makes you think Mustang would be older?

Because your posts are insubstantial and content-free and his aren't?

The age bias that I see is going on here is plain crap. For one, how the **** should you shove someone away for the insane judgement that he's basically a little kid. Talk to an 80 year old and see how foolish he can be, if you get my point. You should never, ever, shove away one's argument just because of your belief that your adversary is a preteen.

No, but you can discard arguments because they're incoherent and ignorant and then figure out it's because the person making them is 12

People should read 'Bowling Alone', interesting argument there

[Mustang19]

Being in a group of like-minded individuals, however, does. It doesn't matter if you're actively religious, or in a sports club, or just have a very good work atmosphere, if you are regularly engaged in group activities, your mental stability will increase.

Just to clarify, this is a purpose the church and other community organizations served in the past, and with the decline of religion I don't think that other institutions have completely filled in this role.

ed: yeah you guys, read bowling alone

Putnam then contrasts the countertrends of ever increasing mass-membership organizations, nonprofit organizations and support groups to the data of the General Social Survey. This data shows an aggregate decline in membership of traditional civic organizations, proving his thesis that U.S. social capital has declined. He then asks the obvious question "Why is US social capital eroding?" (par. 35). He believes the "movement of women into the workforce" (par. 36), the "re-potting hypothesis" (par. 37) and other demographic changes have made little impact on the number of individuals engaging in civic associations. Instead, he looks to the technological "individualizing" (par. 39) of our leisure time via television, Internet and eventually "virtual reality helmets" (par.39).

my conclusions but not quite my arguments

[Luis Dias]

Why is it that in the HTL forums, only moderators seem to have the ghastly habit of proclaiming* the age of their interlocutors as if it's anything related to "good manners"?

*inventing.

[The E]

Why is it that in the HTL forums, only moderators seem to have the ghastly habit of proclaiming* the age of their interlocutors as if it's anything related to "good manners"?

*inventing.

I didn't invent anything. He did. If he wants to be treated like a 12-year-old, then he can have it.

[Mustang19]

Oh come on, split this off in another thread if you have to. Let's get back to Race, Politics and Stupidity.

[The E]

Nope, I'd like to have all the stupidity concentrated in one thread.

[Mustang19]

Certainly, it doesn't matter what you call it, social cohesion helps.

But using church attendance as a meterstick doesn't work, because it's only measuring one type of social activity. I submit to you that there are more things you can do with your time than go to church.

Bowling Alone talks about this. It hasn't just been churches but every sort of social organization that have seen less membership.

[General Battuta]

It's possible that they're hitting a problem similar to the 'declining PC games sales' and 'declining network television viewers' problems - failing to capture new modes of socialization.