[starbug]

And let's not sell the GTVA too short Anjelus. The Shivans *have* been trying to exterminate humanity and the Vasuadans, and they were stopped, twice. Now, it's unlikely that kind of sucess can be repeated indefinitely, but it's poor story telling to create an enemy so powerful there isn't a *single* path to victory.

Technically it is only once they tried to wipe us out, and they did do a good number on the Vasudans!, also i am sure i can remember someone from saying that the fleet in FS1 was just a scouting fleet. Also if we hadn't discovered the Lucifer's weakness, well bye bye earth.

Also the second incursion wasn't an invasion, its been a while since i played the Fs2 campaign but the Shivans even try to get past Capella? They seemed only interested in securing Capella and i think the fleet was their to protect the sathanas and clear the area so they could build their galatic hyperspace bypass! If and when they came back i recon and to quote bender "were boned!"

But if the GTVA is win the UEF war, i think they need to do it quickly, as a prolonged war will wouldn't be good for morale and also would it be a victory after the cost of life and ships which would come in handy, as UEF assest i think would be effective against shivans, certainly figthers and bombers.

[Buckshee Rounds]

Technically it is only once they tried to wipe us out, and they did do a good number on the Vasudans!, also i am sure i can remember someone from saying that the fleet in FS1 was just a scouting fleet. Also if we hadn't discovered the Lucifer's weakness, well bye bye earth.

Ah yes, the old gamebox blurb, I remember reading that for the first time and exclaiming, "scout fleet?!" 

Also the second incursion wasn't an invasion, its been a while since i played the Fs2 campaign but the Shivans even try to get past Capella? They seemed only interested in securing Capella and i think the fleet was their to protect the sathanas and clear the area so they could build their galatic hyperspace bypass! If and when they came back i recon and to quote bender "were boned!"

But if the GTVA is win the UEF war, i think they need to do it quickly, as a prolonged war will wouldn't be good for morale and also would it be a victory after the cost of life and ships which would come in handy, as UEF assest i think would be effective against shivans, certainly figthers and bombers.

Assumes numerous facts not in evidence, of course.

See that's the problem right there, we don't have a clue why the Shivans do what they do. I like to think they must have some kind of motive on some level, but then again action without motive is a totally alien concept to me and the Shivans are nothing if not totally alien. When it comes to Shivans a lot of things are heavily implied but not really backed as fact. (Action without motive: maybe they're all stoned or really drunk?)

For instance, during Capella they didn't seem to mind having a number of warships blown up alongside the GTVA during The Bang. And I'm fairely sure we've never seen the Shivans retreat from a losing fight (feel free to call me on that). It's likely, though not necessarily fact, that the Shivans think nothing of suffering huge losses. If you had a fleet of 80 Saths you really wouldn't mind would you? Of course there isn't evidence to back it up but it's pretty much a given.

I think it goes without saying that the Shivans operate on a very large scale and it's heavily implied in the tech entry that the Galaxy is infested with them. So they're a tough nut to crack. If they can't be stopped then there isn't much point in fighting them, but it's been proven in both games that they can be stopped, at least temporarily.

And let's not sell the GTVA too short Anjelus. The Shivans *have* been trying to exterminate humanity and the Vasuadans, and they were stopped, twice. Now, it's unlikely that kind of sucess can be repeated indefinately, but it's poor story telling to create an enemy so powerful there isn't a *single* path to victory.

And so there's the dilemma. Lets say for a moment the Shivans really can't be stopped. Perhaps Humanity and Vasudans are so little of a concern they've been haphazard in their attempts at genocide? Bit of a cop out but you can't say FS doesn't tend to contradict itself when measuring the Shivans.

[Anjelus]

The Shivans can be "beat", but I just don't think military victory is the answer or even realistic. Does anyone really see the GTVA/UEF/Vasudans combined EVER being powerful enough to attack Shivan space and invade and occupy their homeworld, if they even have one which isn't likely? Or sign a peace treaty and have a little armistice where we divide the Milky Way between us and them?

I mean seriously. I don't take the stance that Shivans are some mystical force, a "galactic immune system", or a "punishment for our vanity". But I do think they're much higher up on the food chain than we are, humbling as that may be. In fact that idea is what attracted me to FS lore in the first place.

What are they? No idea. What do they want? No idea. What are they capable of? Have some idea (nuking a star, destroying planets and civilizations, etc) but I've got a good feeling that we've only scratched the surface of what the Shivans are capable of overall.

Are they ever going to invade again? Damn I hope not.

HAVE they ever even actually invaded? The war against the Lucifer was probably the bloodiest and hardest we've ever fought but for them it was a skirmish. And during what we call the 'Second Incursion', which we consider another great big epic confrontation of David & Goliath, they weren't really even trying, they just did whatever it was they did to Capella and swept our fleets aside because we were in the way.

Yea I realize "invincible foe" isn't good or traditional storytelling, and I don't think they're at all invincible. But I just think Shivans are big scary things in a big scary universe and we should be duly humbled by them   

[Deadly in a Shadow]

The Shivans can be "beat", but I just don't think military victory is the answer or even realistic. Does anyone really see the GTVA/UEF/Vasudans combined EVER being powerful enough to attack Shivan space and invade and occupy their homeworld, if they even have one which isn't likely? Or sign a peace treaty and have a little armistice where we divide the Milky Way between us and them?

If I remember right, every negotiation attempt failed. Well, now we have ETAK but even then I don't think that the Shivans are very diplomatic.

[ZeroCooL]

I think there are many more species themselves aware of the Vasudans, and the Terrans, I sometimes think that in the Milky Way had thousands of alien factions with their own technology and shivans .., appeared out of nowhere .... when I look at their ships do not seem, even of this galaxy

and I think that destroy stars shivans to consume any type of material, can be said to reap stars thus come to devour the Milky Way do not know why but I guess 5 factions traveling together to the colony of making a closer GTVA diplomatic presentation and asked whether they want to join a sort of intergalactic NATO to stop the shivans in systems completely unknown!

[QuakeIV]

and I think that destroy stars shivans to consume any type of material, can be said to reap stars thus come to devour the Milky Way do not know why but I guess 5 factions traveling together to the colony of making a closer GTVA diplomatic presentation and asked whether they want to join a sort of intergalactic NATO to stop the shivans in systems completely unknown!

Never underestimate the power of a large group of idiots working together eh?

[ZeroCooL]

Unity is strength

and more speaking about the shivans

Also, I saw the shivans deploy hundreds of Sathanas, does not seem logical that not only GTVA throughout the galaxy is enduring the scourge of red bastards?

[QuakeIV]

That would make sense, someone has to be out there.

If they are, they are probably perfectly willing to align themselves with fellow Shivan prey.
That would make for an interesting campaign.

"Civilized races of the milky way, UNITE!"

[ZeroCooL]

That would make sense, someone has to be out there.

If they are, they are probably perfectly willing to align themselves with fellow Shivan prey.
That would make for an interesting campaign.

"Civilized races of the milky way, UNITE!"

do not steal my idea!,
all I need is a large and talented team xD


he only problem of such a project, would be the size, and make the main FS2 campaign is seen as a prologue xD

[SpardaSon21]

This just in: Alpha 1 is secretly Commander Shepard.

[LordPomposity]

This just in: Alpha 1 is secretly Commander Shepard.

Darius has already trolled a few threads with this.

[Drogoth]

This just in: Alpha 1 is secretly Commander Shepard.

When I played Mass Effect, the reapers reminded me of the shivans so much that i got pissed, yelld 'FS RIP' and quit playing

[Commander Zane]

I see no resemblance, in shape or background story.

[Drogoth]

All powerful alien race bent on genocide for unknown reasons? I dunno, it was probably an unfair comparison, but I'm predisposed to disike choice based RPG's

[NGTM-1R]

All powerful alien race bent on genocide for unknown reasons? I dunno, it was probably an unfair comparison, but I'm predisposed to disike choice based RPG's

You're both ripping off Berserker. Step off the Saberhagen.

[Anjelus]

Not to derail the thread but the Reapers aren't half as cool as the Shivans. They were up there in ME1 but... well, let's just say we learned a bit too much about them in ME2 for my taste.

Whereas the Shivans have been haunting my sleep for fully half my life now. Those death black ships and all... and their weapons are too much... NO IT ISN'T! YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND, YOU WEREN'T THERE!


 

[-Norbert-]

And then we have Reapers... the same Reapers we (as a small team of infantrymen so to say) killed two of. Okay the first was just disabled by us and then blown up by the Normandy (with a "little" help from a whole fleet), but the other one we defeated by shooting it's eyes out
Oh did I mention that the Reapers don't have any mysterious goals. They just want two things: Harvest the living beings in the milky way as food, slaves and ressources and make sure nothing can become sufficiently strong to beat them.

The Shivans on the other hand? Some sources say they want to annihilate the "destroyers" so the peacefull races can flourish, but then why didn't they try a bit more seriously to wipe the GTVA out? Or are they overestimating our strength and thus gather far more foces than we've seen so far for the final push? Are they trying to lull us into thinking it's over to hit us with a surprise attack? Are they secretly observing or even infiltrating us, to learn our weaknesses or even sabotage us from within as preparation for the next assault?
And so on and so forth...
Shivans are much cooler and far deeper than even the ME1 Reapers ever were before ME2 messed them up.

[Anjelus]

Shivans are much cooler and far deeper than even the ME1 Reapers ever were before ME2 messed them up.

Yea you're right. I guess I just kinda liked that scene where you meet Sovereign on Virmire and that revelation abot the Keepers. Love those little guys!

Buuut yea they never touch the Shivans. Realistically speaking even that entire scene was copied from the confrontation with the Kohr-za (spelling?) in Star Control 2. See now the Ur-Quan, THEY'RE a great alien antagonist. I'd put them on Shivan level guilt free.

There really ought to be a Freespace and Star Control crossover. Hmm... mod idea...

[General Battuta]

Shivans are much cooler and far deeper than even the ME1 Reapers ever were before ME2 messed them up.

Yea you're right. I guess I just kinda liked that scene where you meet Sovereign on Virmire and that revelation abot the Keepers. Love those little guys!

Buuut yea they never touch the Shivans. Realistically speaking even that entire scene was copied from the confrontation with the Kohr-za (spelling?) in Star Control 2. See now the Ur-Quan, THEY'RE a great alien antagonist. I'd put them on Shivan level guilt free.

There really ought to be a Freespace and Star Control crossover. Hmm... mod idea...

You should play Wings of Dawn.

[crazy_dave]

Wow ... I've been away from the forums for awhile. I had no idea that I had helped inspire an 11-page thread during that time. I've read through it (well okay admittedly only a small fraction of it) and I liked a lot of the discussion. It made for interesting reading, so thank you LordPomposity for picking it up.

Anyway, regardless of whether or not the GTVA or UEF has a chance of winning, I look forward to the next chapter in the story.