[SypheDMar]

What the author doesn't get is that Hollywood is successful the world over because it makes stuff THAT NON-AMERICAN PEOPLE OFTEN LIKE. Chinese media, despite being very heavily protected is almost totally uncompetitive even on its home turf, the Avatar Incident made that abundently clear.

I have no idea what the Avatar incident is, but I know that Red Cliff is still loved in China. Every other point I agree with. My Chinese friends still use PPS and all sorts of ways to watch Friends, How I Met Your Mother, Big Bang Theory, etc.

Because there aren't any. Despite living in China for 6 years except for a rare short story I haven't seen a single TV series or film based on space. Sci-fi in China in general is slim pickings.

I can tell. That's why I only watch their cop/crime movies. (Hong Kong ones.)

Does China even have Sci-Fi?

The last "Chinese" sci-fi movie I watched was actually a Hong Kong movie, and that had to do with with an alien Furby-Dog hybrid.

I think few months ago i've read that china actually banned SF not to give people ideas (possibly about democracy?). On the other hand, how else do you want to govern several planets that are lys away from each other? You have to give them autonomy, or else your empire will crumble...

This is far from correct.

That article a while back said time travel I think... with some hilarious reason ala "it makes for bad/implausible storylines so we won't have it!" attached.

And the worst thing is, that is so true.  We should make it a constitutional amendment, at least.. 

If you ever watched a Chinese TV show that had time travel in it, it's usually stupid. It's actually used in Chinese shows A LOT. I figured that the higher ups got annoyed at the stupidity of it all, and when they realized they were all watching American shows, they had no choice but to ban time travel.

[Kosh]

I have no idea what the Avatar incident is, but I know that Red Cliff is still loved in China. Every other point I agree with. My Chinese friends still use PPS and all sorts of ways to watch Friends, How I Met Your Mother, Big Bang Theory, etc.

See qazwsx's post. Confucius was pwned by Avatar, which wasn't a particularly good film either. It wasn't for lack of trying on the part of the Confucious team, they brought in several heavy hitting actors from Hong Kong and it had a fairly large budget.

If you ever watched a Chinese TV show that had time travel in it, it's usually stupid. It's actually used in Chinese shows A LOT. I figured that the higher ups got annoyed at the stupidity of it all, and when they realized they were all watching American shows, they had no choice but to ban time travel.

That was something that only came up in recent years, but the reason it was banned wasn't really because it was stupid. One of Chinese people's biggest deficiencies is their blind worship of the past, despite having acomplished essentially nothing for hundreds of years and despite having a much better life now than what could have been possible a long time ago they still cling to it. Since the party is supposed to be leading them into a glorious future that doesn't exactly make it look good, hence the banning.


EDIT:

Blade Runner was doing the futuristic Chinatown stuff in the early 80's, that's old-hat now.

That was because back then the thinking was Japan would grow into a superpower and be the leading edge of technology innovation (having all the answers they're better than us blah blah blah) into the 21st century. With only a couple of exceptions this didn't happen, and in fact in many areas their competitiveness has significantly decreased. In 1989 in terms of sales out of the top 10 semiconductor makers 6 were Japanese, today it's only 2. That is rather telling and should serve as a cautionary example of why hype about China and India, despite their potential, should not be taken too seriously.

[Mustang19]

Hahaha the US already outsourced most of its semiconductor manufacturing to other countries too. Come wartime we'll be depending on China for our chips. And our steel production, along with the rest of the capacity to build **** we lost after deindustrialization.

Even the "American" chip manufacturers let cheap Chinese and southeast Asian labor get most of the actual work done. The decline of first world manufacturing didn't just happen in Japan.

[Kosh]

Hahaha the US already outsourced most of its semiconductor manufacturing to other countries too. Come wartime we'll be depending on China for our chips. And our steel production, along with the rest of the capacity to build **** we lost after deindustrialization.

Even the "American" chip manufacturers let cheap Chinese and southeast Asian labor get most of the actual work done. The decline of first world manufacturing didn't just happen in Japan.

isuppli disagrees

Given that China has yet to produce a single world class semiconductor company I wouldn't count on it. In fact their entire industry is several generations behind.

Even the "American" chip manufacturers let cheap Chinese and southeast Asian labor get most of the actual work done. The decline of first world manufacturing didn't just happen in Japan.

Semiconductor fabrication isn't labor intensive, so making chips here isn't much cheaper than it is elsewhere.

[SypheDMar]

That was because back then the thinking was Japan would grow into a superpower and be the leading edge of technology innovation (having all the answers they're better than us blah blah blah) into the 21st century. With only a couple of exceptions this didn't happen, and in fact in many areas their competitiveness has significantly decreased. In 1989 in terms of sales out of the top 10 semiconductor makers 6 were Japanese, today it's only 2. That is rather telling and should serve as a cautionary example of why hype about China and India, despite their potential, should not be taken too seriously.

The difference with China is that they have the population, skill, and the resource to match. Also, unlike Japan, they have an influence and are an alternative to the U.S. Countries back then could survive without Japan. Countries now cannot survive without China. The biggest difference, though, is that Japan is a vassal state of the U.S. By that I mean that Japan did whatever the U.S. told it to do because they had little choice given the situation at the time. When Japan was told to increase the value of the yen, they did so. When they were in a recession, we ignored them.

I don't believe that a Chinese-dominated Asia is the inevitable future, but I'm more skeptical of a continued, more permanent America-centric West lasting for much longer.

That was something that only came up in recent years, but the reason it was banned wasn't really because it was stupid. One of Chinese people's biggest deficiencies is their blind worship of the past, despite having acomplished essentially nothing for hundreds of years and despite having a much better life now than what could have been possible a long time ago they still cling to it. Since the party is supposed to be leading them into a glorious future that doesn't exactly make it look good, hence the banning.

I was joking. Of course they don't ban stuff because it's stupid. As far as accomplishing essentially nothing goes, up until the 18th century, Asia was the economic powerhouse of the world. Up until the Opium War, China and Japan accounted for 35% of the World's GDP whereas the US and Britain was only around 7%. I don't know about the Chinese blindly clinging to the past, so I can't argue that point.

[AtomicClucker]

Up until the Opium War, China and Japan accounted for 35% of the World's GDP whereas the US and Britain was only around 7%. I don't know about the Chinese blindly clinging to the past, so I can't argue that point.

China also had the largest population, but due to its internal fragmentation and heavily conservative mindframe, was on an irreversible decline until the 20th century. Their great technical innovations, economy and other unique aspects essentially evaporated as the state devolved in a myopic sideshow. The other thing to note is how many of China's great endeavours were specifically driven by the state: from Cheng-Ho's great voyages in the 15th century to the maintenance and routine reconstruction of the Great Wall, the state was able to employ at the time the worlds greatest technology and expertise for these exercises, but then turn towards of a period of stagnation that only was changed by a substantial challenge posed by an outside force.

The Japanese on the other hand, were quite determined to avoid getting into the political mess the Chineses government had devolved into and being dominated by the European powers, so their growth and temporary empire is nothing short of a miracle, but they lacked substantial domestic resource production like the US or Russia.

[Kosh]

The difference with China is that they have the population, skill, and the resource to match.

So did Russia, look what happened to them.

Countries now cannot survive without China.

If China didn't exist there are still dozens of other improvrished nations we export our ****ty toy making jobs to. The adjustment would kind of suck, but it would be temporary.

The biggest difference, though, is that Japan is a vassal state of the U.S. By that I mean that Japan did whatever the U.S. told it to do because they had little choice given the situation at the time. When Japan was told to increase the value of the yen, they did so. When they were in a recession, we ignored them.

Japan only got where it did because of unfair trading practices and a massively undervalued currency. And no, they were not ignored when their economy crashed. Time and time again recommendations were made for reforms that would have corrected the issues that stalled the economy, but they were ignored for being "unjapanese". What happened and continues to happen was entirely their fault.

The other thing to note is how many of China's great endeavours were specifically driven by the state: from Cheng-Ho's great voyages in the 15th century to the maintenance and routine reconstruction of the Great Wall, the state was able to employ at the time the worlds greatest technology and expertise for these exercises, but then turn towards of a period of stagnation that only was changed by a substantial challenge posed by an outside force.

Not entirely accurate. A very long time ago it had a very open and inquisitive society (by the standards of the day) and were making many advances which lead it to become a major force in the region, but starting from ~500 years ago that all changed to become the inward, automoton like people they are today. That is what caused their decline.

[AtomicClucker]

Not entirely accurate. A very long time ago it had a very open and inquisitive society (by the standards of the day) and were making many advances which lead it to become a major force in the region, but starting from ~500 years ago that all changed to become the inward, automoton like people they are today. That is what caused their decline.

More like a very large generalization; the Chinese decline is a highly problematic and very complex issue, they indeed had an open minded society, but with conclusion of Cheng-Ho's voyages the Chinese had hit the apex of their power, but a number of changes within the government and policies, not too mention rulers and societal changes pushed it towards a conservative mindset focused on the past. Or simply put, the government ossified and gradually the majority of the populace as well. While China did have a big economy, during the last 500 years its attitudes towards merchants (whom were usually foreigners) got very condescending to the point they were regularly expelled or had their assets seized - this is similar to Europe at the time, but the European leaders painfully learned that kicking the merchant also destroyed their ability to raise cash to fight wars.

The minor problem with decline related studies is that there are several reasons for the decline and eventual collapse/stagnation, much like how the Western Roman Empire had essentially evaporated, the startling reversals in Chinese history fall within the same complexity, and you've heard me say before, would require a seperate thread.

[Luis Dias]

The difference with China is that they have the population, skill, and the resource to match.

So did Russia, look what happened to them.

China is like almost ten times as bigger as Russia. Please don't compare.

[NGTM-1R]

China is like almost ten times as bigger as Russia. Please don't compare.

It also has ten times a bigger problem trying to modernize, whereas Russia after WW2 came to the table with a reasonably modern economy capable of producing modern goods. The comparison is fairly valid.

[Commander Zane]

The difference with China is that they have the population, skill, and the resource to match.

So did Russia, look what happened to them.

China is like almost ten times as bigger as Russia. Please don't compare.

Sorry, what? Russia has twice the land area of China.

[Snail]

In terms of population.

[Commander Zane]

Okay that I can see.

[Mustang19]

Hahaha the US already outsourced most of its semiconductor manufacturing to other countries too. Come wartime we'll be depending on China for our chips. And our steel production, along with the rest of the capacity to build **** we lost after deindustrialization.

Even the "American" chip manufacturers let cheap Chinese and southeast Asian labor get most of the actual work done. The decline of first world manufacturing didn't just happen in Japan.

isuppli disagrees

Given that China has yet to produce a single world class semiconductor company I wouldn't count on it. In fact their entire industry is several generations behind.

And? The biggest chip companies are American in name only. Their manufacturing operations are mostly outsourced.

http://www.manufacturingnews.com/news/10/0212/semiconductors.html

China led the world last year in new semiconductor factory construction, with six fabs, followed by Taiwan with five, and Korea, Japan, the European Union and Southeast Asia, all with one apiece.

As of 2009, the percentage of global semiconductor production capacity located in the United States was 14 percent, down from 25 percent in 2005 and 17 percent in 2007. Japan has the highest share of global capacity (at 25 percent), followed by Taiwan (18 percent, up from 11 percent in 2001), Korea (17 percent, up from 11 percent in 2001), Europe and the Middle East (11 percent), China (9 percent, up from 2 percent in 2001) and Southeast Asia (6 percent).

The United States does lead the world in one category, however: closures. In 2009, 27 fabs closed worldwide, with 15 of them in the United States (followed by four in Europe, four in Japan, two in China, one in Korea and one in Southeast Asia). The number of closures last year almost doubled from the previous year, when 15 fabs were shut down worldwide, again, with the largest number in the United States (at four).

Goodbye US manufacturing, hello Sisyphean service sector circlejerk.

[Flipside]

This thread has gone off at one hell of a tangent...

I'll split it out later, too tired at the moment.

[Mustang19]

No need at this point. Just correcting a poor fo' who asked about something I said.

Let this be a message for the rest of the unwashed masses. Do not question the enlightenment I dole out to you. I do nothing but read Wikipedia all day. You do not.

[Kosh]

Goodbye US manufacturing, hello Sisyphean service sector circlejerk.

From that list China and southeast asia are the only ones that have low labor costs. The rest are just as expensive as america, and they are supposed to be our allies. There are other reasons to source production elsewhere.

[Mustang19]

From that list China and southeast asia are the only ones that have low labor costs. The rest are just as expensive as america, and they are supposed to be our allies. There are other reasons to source production elsewhere.

Sure, wages aren't the only factor. But if that's meant as a "NO U" I think I'm done here.

Just thought I'd edit in that currency manipulation among other policies do push costs way down in countries like Japan and Taiwan, which is a major reason why they are such successful exporters.

[Kosh]

Sure, wages aren't the only factor. But if that's meant as a "NO U" I think I'm done here.

No it was not a "NO U" thing, I don't play that way. One of the reasons to outsource is the rediculous regulations in the US about exporting hi tech products, the only way around it is to produce in the countries you plan to export to.

Just thought I'd edit in that currency manipulation among other policies do push costs way down in countries like Japan and Taiwan, which is a major reason why they are such successful exporters.

Yes they do push costs down, but Japan's economy has largely been stagnant for the last 20 years, I'm not so sure following their lead would be a good idea. Besides, with the dollar sinking like it is we'll soon enough know what it's like to have a weak currency, and it won't be pretty.

[Mustang19]

No it was not a "NO U" thing, I don't play that way. One of the reasons to outsource is the rediculous regulations in the US about exporting hi tech products, the only way around it is to produce in the countries you plan to export to.

You mean dual use restrictions, that kind of stuff? That alone makes little difference. It isn't just technology manufacturing that's being outsourced, rather it's manufacturing of every kind, and for similar reasons. And it does kind of make sense to prevent the Chinese from getting the technology to produce Raptors and modern submarines.

Yes they do push costs down, but Japan's economy has largely been stagnant for the last 20 years, I'm not so sure following their lead would be a good idea. Besides, with the dollar sinking like it is we'll soon enough know what it's like to have a weak currency, and it won't be pretty.

Stagnant in a relative sense insofar as Japan wasn't booming like it was for decades and it had a hiccup in the 90s. But when you control for demographics they've been doing as good or better than the US. Convenient and crappy wordpress link if you don't believe me, not that there would ever be any doubt.

http://www.thoughtofferings.com/2011/04/real-gdp-per-capita-and-myths-about.html



Of course Japan is "only" going to grow maybe 1.5% this year thanks to the underwater Godzilla fart wrecking the entire country but per capita growth the last few quarters in the US has been disappointing too.

And why am I saying this. Economic growth differences are a whole new tangent, and there are several other successful Asian economies to look at (South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, etc). The point is that the US is pretty much standing around doing nothing while it's industry is getting scrapped.

And about the weak dollar; that's been boosting US manufacturing, doing a bit to close the gaping current account deficit, and working to correct some of the huge global capital flow imbalances that contributed to the current mess.