Author Topic: Bitcoin  (Read 20459 times)

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Offline Unknown Target

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http://www.weusecoins.com/
Also:

http://www.weusecoins.com/getting-started.php

www.bitcoin.org

I've heard a lot of criticism about this, and a lot of praise. What are some of your folks thoughts? I downloaded the app and am trying it now. So far I have no money with which to purchase Bitcoins sooo I guess I'm just looking around.

Some positives I've heard:

Predictable money supply.

Wrests control of money from countries and moves it closer to individual people.

Some negatives:

To me, it doesn't seem like it can work by only generating money at a fixed rate.

Some criticism of the encryption; if it's broken then the entire money supply may be at risk.

A blog with more criticism:

http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2011/06/the-bitcoin-bubble.html
« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 05:23:45 pm by Unknown Target »

 

Offline Bobboau

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isn't this what the .onion community largely uses?
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Offline Beskargam

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skeptical. what defines its value? and they said you do work to earn bitcoins, what kind of work are you doing? frankly i would prefer a currency that more central management

 

Offline achtung

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Current real dollar exchange value hike is a bubble resulting in a mass ponzi scheme. Don't invest real money in bitcoins, and only use someone else's electricity if you want to mine them. :) Selling mined bitcoins to suckers is fine though.
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Offline Unknown Target

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From what I understand:

The "work" you're doing isn't actually work; you're "mining" bitcoins to add currency to the overall pool. Mining is based on a mathematical algorithm that limits the money supply to a predictable rate of increase. The more people mining, the harder the algorithm becomes; using a basic CPU apparently it takes up to 2 years currently to mine one Bitcoin.

Swantz, can you explain how it would become a ponzi scheme? That doesn't seem likely to me; the whole system is based on not having a central authority. Ponzi schemes seem to be the opposite of that.

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php

Here's some good discussion on Bitcoin as a bubble, including the mention of how Bitcoin could be a ponzi scheme:

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=12414.0
« Last Edit: June 07, 2011, 10:01:50 pm by Unknown Target »

 
Bitcoin isn't going to catch on. If it doesn't go bankrupt the government will go after it like they did with egold.There are a lot of economic and political reasons why the fed wants to keep control of the money supply.

 

Offline achtung

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http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/08/us-financial-bitcoins-idUSTRE7573T320110608

Looks like buttcoins are getting some unwanted attention. I'm also seeing reports the bubble may be bursting today. Glad I didn't invest in these things, now I can sit back and watch the show.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 06:00:41 pm by Swantz »
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Offline achtung

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Not that there's been much discussion on this, but I just had to say the exchange market absolutely plummeted today. At the time of this writing, the exchange for USD is sitting at ~$11.75. Down from ~$25 earlier today. It is still plummeting at around a dollar an hour.

The poor souls who invested in this while it was sitting around $35, I don't know if I should feel sorry for them or laugh at them.

Maybe I'll be able to pick up some cheap AMD cards on eBay from miners trying to recover their losses.

Here's a little chart if anyone is interested in watching it implode:

http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/
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Offline General Battuta

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Yeah we were just talking about this on IRC, bitcoin collaaaaapse

 

Offline Bobboau

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Offline achtung

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why?

Big players seeing bubble, followed by initial selling, followed by panic selling.
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Offline Unknown Target

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Honestly it seems to me like all the talk of a bubble created the bubble - same as always.

Actually I find the Bitcoin experiment to be rather interesting, just in how it did succeed in creating a whole seperate monetary system that wasn't pegged to anything other than an abstract concept of "work done". It had it's own little economic gold rush and then bust, seemingly independent of most outside factors; it wasn't pegged to the USD for instance, because the boom/bust had absolutely no relation to USD values. I believe the boom/bust was purely driven on people getting worried that a bust was coming, talking about it, a few people start to drop out, and a few more, and eventually it tips.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2011, 11:40:54 pm by Unknown Target »

 

Offline Mongoose

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I'd never heard of it before this thread, to be honest.  Too bad that it already seems to be imploding.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Offline StarSlayer

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Speculative Attack!
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Offline Klaustrophobia

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i've never heard about it before this thread, but who could really think this is a wise idea?  fluctuating currency based on absolutely nothing.  everyone should have seen this coming from a mile away.
I like to stare at the sun.

 

Offline Janos

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Oh Bitcoin. Great currency:
1. apparently every client must be aware of ~all transactions, meaning practical trouble once a certain treshold is crossed
2. It's extremely unstable. I mean, very. Might actually be good for some speculaturs, though.
3. It's used by drug dealers and Russian mob for money laundering (or so I've heard) which means it's future is already compromised. It's not wise to invest into something that is both unstable and used in illegal matters and that is not under control of any national authority.
4. The rate of income is predictable, but here's the catch: The supply of bitcoins is limited to 21 million, after that NONE. This is actually important. Once you hit the plateau of bitcoins, the bitcoins might start to gain value. Might, mind you, not certain. So if you have bitcoins then, good for you. You have made an investment. Too bad everyone else realizes this as well, meaning there is no reason to use the currency as long as deflation continues. This is ok for you, but pretty bad for whoever happens to sell a commodity in bitcoins. This could mean that they are pretty soon out of bussiness. And what good is a currency that you cannot spend everywhere?
5. You can accidentally lose all your money if you delete your wallet. Whoops!
6. No receipt -> fun hoaxes ahead :D
7. Creating bitcoins is practically always a net loss (electricity is not free, nor is the hardware)
8. people get brain damage from bitcoins lol
9. Awesome ponzi scheme: the founder and the early investors could just mine ****load of bitcoins and have a huge supply of them, but the latecomers can not :v well not exactly a ponzi scheme but...
10. Value is completely speculative. Transfer of currency is peer-to-peer and unencrypted. Suffers from hyperinflation and hyperdeflation in short term. Fixed supply of 21 million bitcoins.
11. Right now bitcoin mining uses about 59 GWh/year. The consumption increases.
12. Well anyways, most of those problems (except the ridiculous creation process and fixed supply) could probably be fixed it was accepted more widely but come one. Who, except of weird internet superheroes, is going to adopt this kind of currency?

13.
Quote from: a guy on another forum
This is amazing. It's WoW gold without the videogame attached to it, has no relationship to any tangible assets, there's not even the suggestion that anyone on the outside would want to own 2 of them much less 20 million, and yet humans are trading them back and forth on the assumption of "well, what if they're worth more later" and trying to hedge against the collapse of the currency that, among other things, they use to pay for Internet access so they can generate more of these phantom things.

I couldn't come up with a better way to demonstrate how a bubble arises if I tried.
lol wtf

 
 

Offline Unknown Target

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Oh Bitcoin. Great currency:
1. apparently every client must be aware of ~all transactions, meaning practical trouble once a certain treshold is crossed

I don't think that's correct.


Quote
3. It's used by drug dealers and Russian mob for money laundering (or so I've heard) which means it's future is already compromised. It's not wise to invest into something that is both unstable and used in illegal matters and that is not under control of any national authority.

...and the USD isn't used by those same people?

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8. people get brain damage from bitcoins lol

What?

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9. Awesome ponzi scheme: the founder and the early investors could just mine ****load of bitcoins and have a huge supply of them, but the latecomers can not :v well not exactly a ponzi scheme but...

Yea, it's not exactly a ponzi scheme. The system is actually designed for that though; when it first started, it was easy to "mine" bitcoins; as there are more people mining, it gets harder, thus limiting the supply. It's a purely theoretical currency.

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10. Value is completely speculative. Transfer of currency is peer-to-peer and unencrypted. Suffers from hyperinflation and hyperdeflation in short term. Fixed supply of 21 million bitcoins.

Pretty sure that's not true. There's been a big deal made about the encryption code used. IIRC isn't it the same one that Wikileaks used on their "insurance" file? Like RS 238 or something?

Quote
12. Well anyways, most of those problems (except the ridiculous creation process and fixed supply) could probably be fixed it was accepted more widely but come one. Who, except of weird internet superheroes, is going to adopt this kind of currency?

So you negated all your points by basically saying "if more people used it, it would be ok"?

Quote
13. quote=a guy on another forumThis is amazing. It's WoW gold without the videogame attached to it, has no relationship to any tangible assets, there's not even the suggestion that anyone on the outside would want to own 2 of them much less 20 million, and yet humans are trading them back and forth on the assumption of "well, what if they're worth more later" and trying to hedge against the collapse of the currency that, among other things, they use to pay for Internet access so they can generate more of these phantom things.

I like the WoW gold comment, though there's an argument to be made that much of our money these days is the same way; that dollar bill in your hand is worthless, it can not be used for anything of value (for instance, you can't eat it). The only thing that gives it it's value anymore is that it's backed by the credit of the United States, which many people are arguing is getting less and less trustworthy.
 

 

Offline Janos

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Oh Bitcoin. Great currency:
1. apparently every client must be aware of ~all transactions, meaning practical trouble once a certain treshold is crossed

I don't think that's correct.

Well, yes, theoretically it wasn't, this is corrent:
Quote from: Wiki
Because transactions are broadcast to the entire network, they are inherently public. Unlike regular banking, which preserves customer privacy by keeping transaction records private, transactional anonymity is accomplished in Bitcoin by keeping the ownership of addresses private, while at the same time publishing all transactions. As an example, if Alice sends 123.45 BTC to Bob, a public record is created that allows anyone to see that 123.45 was sent from one address to another.

I don't know how well that would scale. Probably not well.

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3. It's used by drug dealers and Russian mob for money laundering (or so I've heard) which means it's future is already compromised. It's not wise to invest into something that is both unstable and used in illegal matters and that is not under control of any national authority.

...and the USD isn't used by those same people?

Not to the extent, no. You really can't control USD money supply and use dollar for money laundering that well :D

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8. people get brain damage from bitcoins lol
What?

You haven't heard? BITCOIN: http://www.bitcoinminingaccidents.com/?p=271 BITCOIN

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9. Awesome ponzi scheme: the founder and the early investors could just mine ****load of bitcoins and have a huge supply of them, but the latecomers can not :v well not exactly a ponzi scheme but...
Yea, it's not exactly a ponzi scheme. The system is actually designed for that though; when it first started, it was easy to "mine" bitcoins; as there are more people mining, it gets harder, thus limiting the supply. It's a purely theoretical currency.

What happens when you cannot provide currency but the economy grows? I mean, why do people even mine bitcoins since it's so obviously a net loss?
Spoiler:
speculation

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10. Value is completely speculative. Transfer of currency is peer-to-peer and unencrypted. Suffers from hyperinflation and hyperdeflation in short term. Fixed supply of 21 million bitcoins.
Pretty sure that's not true. There's been a big deal made about the encryption code used. IIRC isn't it the same one that Wikileaks used on their "insurance" file? Like RS 238 or something?
What, the unencrypted transfer? could be seriously i'm just pissing on this because it's so lol


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12. Well anyways, most of those problems (except the ridiculous creation process and fixed supply) could probably be fixed it was accepted more widely but come one. Who, except of weird internet superheroes, is going to adopt this kind of currency?

So you negated all your points by basically saying "if more people used it, it would be ok"?
No it wouldn't, because it would still cause economic stagnation, there's no central control, there's no effective monetary policy re: economic fluctuations, it would still deflate... I mean, yeah, it could be good, just like Zimbabwean dollar could be good, but whatever.

You can't pay your mortgage with bitcoin. You'll have your nations' tax police in your tail if you make one wrong step. The currency's value is based on pure speculation. Right now it has no redeeming qualities whatsoever, and as such, it's extremely unlikely that it would become a real currency. If it did, it would be... Well, it's not like we hadn't tested fixed money supply before.

Quote
Quote
13. quote=a guy on another forumThis is amazing. It's WoW gold without the videogame attached to it, has no relationship to any tangible assets, there's not even the suggestion that anyone on the outside would want to own 2 of them much less 20 million, and yet humans are trading them back and forth on the assumption of "well, what if they're worth more later" and trying to hedge against the collapse of the currency that, among other things, they use to pay for Internet access so they can generate more of these phantom things.

I like the WoW gold comment, though there's an argument to be made that much of our money these days is the same way; that dollar bill in your hand is worthless, it can not be used for anything of value (for instance, you can't eat it). The only thing that gives it it's value anymore is that it's backed by the credit of the United States, which many people are arguing is getting less and less trustworthy.

Well, there are other currencies in the world as well. Since I have no direct ties with US dollar, the trust itself has only indirect consequences for me. But the point is this: you have real, practical use for $. It has a relatively stable rate, it does not fluctuate wildly, it  works as a currency in one of the world's largest market, it is a global trading currency, it is a money reserve currency. US alone has 300 million people using that currency as their... well, currency. It is controlled by a central entity that can control the money flow when necessities dictate. It's value is not based on wild internet speculation.

Bitcoin is just... I just can't wait.
lol wtf