Author Topic: Bitcoin  (Read 20481 times)

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Offline Nuke

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if (rich) people (or the government) really wanted to get rid of bitcoin, all they would need to do is offer to exchange bitcoins for cash. then just sit on them. since there is a hard limit on how many coins will be generated, its just a matter of time till they become so rare that people will exchange them for a fraction of their value. this is probibly going to be what happens when bitcoin 2.0 comes around.

the other way to devalue bitcoin, is to nuke all the things.
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Offline S-99

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Luckily there's plenty of bitcoin exchanges. The easiest one to use if you're in america is coinbase. No need to do money orders with them, unless you want to, then use campbx instead. The one thing most people complain about is how long it takes to get their bitcoins, or their money from selling bitcoins. Bitcoin transactions are not instantaneous. It takes some time for transactions to propogate through the bitcoin network before bitcoins get to their destination. The area of selling bitcoins and getting your money back also takes time. Wiring money to an exchange takes a while, and a bank ach transfer takes a while too. People use to be able to buy with credit cards, but this practice was mostly stopped with scammy people doing charge backs with the credit card since bitcoin is not possible to perform a charge back (receive your new bitcoins and get your money back). It's why paypal and google wallet don't deal with bitcoin. Link a bank account, or money order. The fastest way i could find to sell and buy bitcoins was localbitcoins.com. However, it was easier buying bitcoins a long time ago. It's harder to buy them today, especially if you're in america.

For the recent market with bitcoin has been pretty interesting. The silk road take down did make bitcoin more popular by giving it more exposure to people via news (which drove more people to use it). Then china got into the action and was a very big part with increasing the value (which got even more people to use it). China's bitcoin exchange became big very fast surpassing mt gox. The one thing that we all should be careful with here is that it is still a new currency. It's still maturing, it's still being adopted, it's still normalizing. Or, it's in a bubble and will crash. That however doesn't get rid of the fact that it's still a new currency that's maturing and being adopted for use (this is in no way saying that bitcoin can't crash). People that have bitcoin, and new people that just got some, sort of don't exactly know how to think of the currency. It's good for buying stuff on the internet, but should it be invested like a hedge, and how long will the profitability of selling bitcoins last? Luckily people do make money by buying and selling different currencies based on exchange rate and arbitrage selling. Investing in bitcoin like a hedge, really just has yet to be seen (in my own opinion, i'd call doing that a mistake, there's better hedges to invest in).

The really cool news on the evolution of bitcoin:
Bitcoin has more or less been evolving in the area of how to store it. It has gotten to the point of being able to go back and forth from intangibility to tangibility. We all have probably heard of casacius physical bitcoins. Not a good way to buy bitcoin, and only buy from the maker (people selling these on ebay have a very high chance of selling an "unused" coin that actually is used and you just bought an over priced bitcoin container that's empty). Casacius coins are more or less about increasing popularity of bitcoin with collectible novelty coins. Casacius coins can also physically be cracked with a seringe and some kind of polymer that doesn't degrade the glue on the sticker of these coins. After cracking a casacius bitcoin is when you ship to that poor sucker on ebay who bought it :P

The better way is printing your own bitcoin bills, a practice of maintaining a paper wallet. It's also the most secure way to store your bitcoins (removes having any digital wallet get hacked).
This more or less explains how bitcoin bills work. Now, you can print these out on your own sheets of plain paper if you want. Or, you can use the coinbase export to paper wallet (how cool of coinbase to do this yesterday btw). Or you can get these nifty bills to shove through a printer if you really wanted something nice i guess.


Now, one area of bitcoin that i have not cared for hearing whatsoever, is that it's only used for buying illegal stuff, and only used by criminals. This is true to a point, just like cold hard cash. The bitcoin system is great because of how it operates by getting rid of any third party to handle money between buyer and seller (paypal, western union, etc.). Bitcoin is the digital equivalent of handing cash over to the seller and the seller handing over the goods (except through the internet). The main thing about criminals and buying illegal stuff is that there's always the use of cash to leave less of a paper trail (the taliban isn't going to use a debit card to buy a nuke). All criminals use cold hard stacks of cash in this manner. Before bitcoin came along, in my country and around the world, the american dollar was used for the same thing if you were a bad bad person doing bad bad stuff (american bills are still popular). In reality any cash is used in this manner. People not wanting to use bitcoin because of this stigma that only bad people use it is retarded. That's like people not wanting to buy cd-r/rw's because only pirates burn music cd's and sell them at a profit. If having bitcoin makes you be seen as a criminal...well, having cash does the same thing. Fud is fud in this case.
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Offline Luis Dias

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It should be noted that the chinese trades amount to at least 1/3 of the whole bitcoin exchange, and this is because of the very protectionary laws that China has regarding investment abroad (money flowing inside is a - ok, outside, not so much!). So they are currently using this bitcoin technique as a work around, making rich chinese people able to invest in other countries.

This is why probably the US congress and others were really positive about this thing. It points to a much more globalized world where big capital doesn't pay taxes whatsoever, money flows wherever it wants to and how much it wants to, it's basically any billionaire's wet dream come true.

And that's what really irks me the most, this bitcoin **** is something that is being promulgated as something that will "free up" the individuals from "big government", arbitrary rules and other bad bad things from some kind of skynet or Prism or whatevah, but what this is really all about is about creating the perfect flowing trade money that suddenly will make billionnaireland independent from any country whatsoever. Like they say, "taxes are for the poor to pay".

 
It's kind of sad, really, how many libertarians have been duped into thinking they're working against corporate domination by undermining all the checks  on their power.
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Offline Nuke

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bitcoin is nothing more than a public beta test at this point. every technical article ive read about it has the words "experimental currency" in it. its a good idea on paper, but its still got bugs and isnt currently viable to replace existing currencies.
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Offline Luis Dias

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There are a ****ton of alternative cripto currencies on the nets right now, all deflating like a mad hockey stick at the moment. Bitcoin is the "leader" right now but it can be defeated if some alternatives prove their worth.

 

Offline S-99

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Some of the other cool cryptocurrencies are litecoin and peercoin. Peercoin (PPC), is still quite new. It's worth getting up on mining for it. Litecoin has value, and addresses some of the problems with the bitcoin protocol. Litecoin is not as new peercoin, but mt gox is in the middle of considering allowing people to trade it on the exchange. Litecoin was likened by the developer to the be silver to the gold of bitcoin.
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Offline Ghostavo

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Do any of those currencies address the issue of inflation (or more concerning, deflation as is the case with bitcoin)?
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Offline karajorma

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Offline S-99

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Anyone fancy dumpster diving for $7.5m?

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/11/it-pro-says-he-threw-out-7500-bitcoins-now-worth-7-5-million/
I'm tired of reading stories of people losing their bitcoins  :nono: It's not how much value they lost, i don't care, because it wasn't mine. But, the forever loss of coins that won't get back into the network is what i like least since bitcoin has the 21 million limit.
Do any of those currencies address the issue of inflation (or more concerning, deflation as is the case with bitcoin)?
My best guess is why the creators let bitcoin be denominated all the way down to .00000001, not so much in the area of inflation, but dealing with fractions of a bitcoin helps.
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Offline Ghostavo

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Do any of those currencies address the issue of inflation (or more concerning, deflation as is the case with bitcoin)?
My best guess is why the creators let bitcoin be denominated all the way down to .00000001, not so much in the area of inflation, but dealing with fractions of a bitcoin helps.

But that doesn't help deflation. And a currency that can only deflate as the economy surrounding it grows just encourages hoarding it.
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Offline S-99

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Hoarding something that is deflating is not the only thing you can do with a currency. You can also spend it. Being able to denominate a bitcoin down to .00000001 definitely helps, in the area that we should be glad when creating bitcoin they did allow for the spending of fractions of a bitcoin when they could have easily made the bitcoin system with this forgotten. There's also a lot of people who don't hoard the currency who use it every day. The market can go either way right now (methinks that adoption is growing and a crash is less likely bubbly). Hoarding of bitcoins is also in my own opinion the same as using it as a hedge; a big mistake. If you bought it when it was low and intend to sell high, by all means do that, but that window of opportunity i wouldn't say is going to be open forever.

Sell a few bitcoins if you must; the value went up from $730 on the 22nd of november (up from october when it was $202) to around $1121 on bitstamp and coinbase today (sell higher on localbitcoins.com, this site does away with most wait times). People can hoard too, but people should definitely spend their bitcoin. When something goes up in value, it's nice to use it, for when you spend less you saved more. If the american dollar doubled in value last night to being worth $2 for every $1, you bet i'm going to get up on a bunch of deals for it would mean that i would be spending 50% less. With bitcoin being able to be denominated down to .00000001, this just means anything requiring payment by bitcoin is going to be less expensive because of the deflation; a few months ago compared to today, we have people spending fractions of a fraction of their bitcoins now. This is also great because items for sale on the internet (where bitcoin is an accepted form of payment) are already valued by a fiat currency price converted to bitcoin. In other words, that $121 video card would be slightly over 0.1btc, where as last october the price would be something like 1.8btc. If you have nothing to buy, i would sell a few bitcoins since we honestly have yet to see if hoarding them is a mistake :lol:

I have a few bitcoins, but my intention is to sell (there's better things to hoard).
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Offline Ghostavo

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Hoarding something that is deflating is not the only thing you can do with a currency. You can also spend it. Being able to denominate a bitcoin down to .00000001 definitely helps, in the area that we should be glad when creating bitcoin they did allow for the spending of fractions of a bitcoin when they could have easily made the bitcoin system with this forgotten. There's also a lot of people who don't hoard the currency who use it every day. The market can go either way right now (methinks that adoption is growing and a crash is less likely bubbly). Hoarding of bitcoins is also in my own opinion the same as using it as a hedge; a big mistake. If you bought it when it was low and intend to sell high, by all means do that, but that window of opportunity i wouldn't say is going to be open forever.

Sell a few bitcoins if you must; the value went up from $730 on the 22nd of november (up from october when it was $202) to around $1121 on bitstamp and coinbase today (sell higher on localbitcoins.com, this site does away with most wait times). People can hoard too, but people should definitely spend their bitcoin. When something goes up in value, it's nice to use it, for when you spend less you saved more. If the american dollar doubled in value last night to being worth $2 for every $1, you bet i'm going to get up on a bunch of deals for it would mean that i would be spending 50% less. With bitcoin being able to be denominated down to .00000001, this just means anything requiring payment by bitcoin is going to be less expensive because of the deflation; a few months ago compared to today, we have people spending fractions of a fraction of their bitcoins now. This is also great because items for sale on the internet (where bitcoin is an accepted form of payment) are already valued by a fiat currency price converted to bitcoin. In other words, that $121 video card would be slightly over 0.1btc, where as last october the price would be something like 1.8btc. If you have nothing to buy, i would sell a few bitcoins since we honestly have yet to see if hoarding them is a mistake :lol:

I have a few bitcoins, but my intention is to sell (there's better things to hoard).

The fact that you can use fractions of bitcoins doesn't help dealing with deflation.

The issue with deflation isn't that "oh, I can't buy/sell bitcoins because they are so expensive", it's that when you have any quantity of them, spending them is worse than not spending them. Why would you want to sell something that is going to be more valuable some time later?

Check more info regarding the problems of deflation
« Last Edit: December 01, 2013, 09:08:35 am by Ghostavo »
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Offline S-99

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I agree with you. The thing i wanted to raise with bitcoin is that it's unlikely to stay deflated. This is why i said, while it is still deflated, buy what you can with bitcoin, or sell your bitcoin (why in my opinion this would be a mistake to use as a hedge, and even an area to grow your money (not unless you sell at the right time before bitcoin inflates)). Before it's too late. The currency is still normalizing, or on the verge of a crash.
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Offline Ghostavo

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I agree with you. The thing i wanted to raise with bitcoin is that it's unlikely to stay deflated. This is why i said, while it is still deflated, buy what you can with bitcoin, or sell your bitcoin (why in my opinion this would be a mistake to use as a hedge, and even an area to grow your money (not unless you sell at the right time before bitcoin inflates)). Before it's too late. The currency is still normalizing, or on the verge of a crash.

Supposing bitcoin gets adopted as a standard currency, why do you think it won't deflate with time?
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Offline Nuke

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bitcoin wasn't designed to be a permanent currency. once there are 21 million bitcoins, mining stops working. mining is ultimately just a clever way to get people to setup servers for the system. once miners stop getting paid, the number of servers will drop drastically and it will be harder to use bitcoin. so within the system are the seeds of its own demise. this was intentional.
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Offline Mongoose

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That seems exceedingly silly.

 

Offline Nuke

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it makes perfect sense when you consider that its just a big science experiment to test a technology.

think about it, the only reason people have bitcoin miners is to make money. but what happens when it becomes impossible to mine bitcoins? you think all the people running miners are going to leave their hardware plugged in with no net gain? as the number of miners decreases, transactions take longer, and become less reliable and secure and people will be doing what ever they can to get rid of their coins.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2013, 04:18:19 pm by Nuke »
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Offline 666maslo666

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it makes perfect sense when you consider that its just a big science experiment to test a technology.

think about it, the only reason people have bitcoin miners is to make money. but what happens when it becomes impossible to mine bitcoins? you think all the people running miners are going to leave their hardware plugged in with no net gain? as the number of miners decreases, transactions take longer, and become less reliable and secure and people will be doing what ever they can to get rid of their coins.

Bitcoin will move to transaction fees instead of mining rewards. Its already happening now.
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shiiiit, when you put it that way the idea of bitcoin representing any kind of long-term solution is just laughable
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.