Author Topic: The debt talks  (Read 26126 times)

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Offline Unknown Target

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Doesn't seem like this is over. With stocks plummeting (based almost purely on speculation as I understand it, which really does need to be curtailed) today in Europe, US, and Asia, worries are growing. I just read an article saying that Italy is likely to default soon.


 

Offline Bob-san

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Stocks plummeted because of low investor expectations for the future. It doesn't need to be curtailed; the cycle needs to complete itself without interference.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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To prohibit the vote by the pocketbook is almost a greater sin then to prohibit standard voting. Even in systems without voting rights you can always trigger economic collapse to cause change. Curtail it? Get out.
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Offline The E

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The stock market is built on trust and expectations. The US government did its best not to improve those things.

As long as you got some crazy nihilists leading one of the big parties around, I would not expect this situation to get better.
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Offline Unknown Target

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I was talking about the rampant speculation that runs the stock market up and down with little reference to the real world. The price of oil is a good example; it relates less to the actual need of it and more to what people think the need of it is.

Though I don't know that much about the modern stock market; it could probably be related to investors just exploiting loopholes and whatnot. *shrug*
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 08:10:59 am by Unknown Target »

 

Offline Luis Dias

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it relates less to the actual need of it and more to what people think the need of it is.

I didn't want to comment on anything, but this just made me facepalm while dying in laughter.

Let me ask you a question UT. Do you base your choices on what you think the facts are, or on what the facts actually are?

Trick question, take your time :lol:

 

Offline -Sara-

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Bit worried about my savings and if to convert them into more solid 'trade goods', I'm not the one to sit still and watch my life saving evaporate and my faith in the Euro-currency is getting more shaky (ofcourse if everyone thinks that way and acts on it, it actually DOES become troubled, but still). Going to watch it for a while first, usually these things take a dip and crawl back up in a same or similar format. A bit like a flu sweeping through the continent. It's just a shame that many groups have to suffer in the meanwhile where in hindsight alternate measures could have been effective solutions. I do wonder if these events, atleast if several more occur in the next decade(s) will change the world market model if eastern countries somehow will prosper more.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 10:15:02 am by -Sara- »
Currently playing: real life.

"Paying bills, working, this game called real life is so much fun!" - Said nobody ever.

 
The problems persist, UT, because the problems were never fixed. The solution currently in place is not a solution, it is simply there to make people believe the problems were fixed. They have only been delayed. The investors were not fooled.

 
I've moved some of my money into other assets around end of last year, now they're up around 40% (silver among other things). It's a pretty extreme difference from the end of last  year. It seems one of the better ways to back up your money. Also would suggest stocking up storable foods, whether you're in Europe or the USA. Doubt it would hurt even if everything ends up alright.



EDIT: Fixed a glaring spelling mistake.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 12:49:51 pm by JCDNWarrior »
I'm all about getting the most out of games, so whenever I discover something very strange or push the limits, I upload them here:

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Offline Unknown Target

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it relates less to the actual need of it and more to what people think the need of it is.

I didn't want to comment on anything, but this just made me facepalm while dying in laughter.

Let me ask you a question UT. Do you base your choices on what you think the facts are, or on what the facts actually are?

Trick question, take your time :lol:

What you think the facts are are what the facts are to you.

That's really not the point of what I was saying though; oil demand has dropped since the recession. Yet the price of oil as I recall has almost only climbed. Why is this? This does not follow supply/demand theory.

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The problems persist, UT, because the problems were never fixed. The solution currently in place is not a solution, it is simply there to make people believe the problems were fixed. They have only been delayed. The investors were not fooled.

Indeed. It's almost sad how much the latest jobs report is being trumpeted; 117,000 new jobs? Who cares? That's miniscule. But the media seems to be clinging onto it out of desperation, waving it around as if it says "look! look! things aren't that bad!".

Really what seems to have happened is that all the effort went into propping up the stocks, the big companies, etc - the numbers, essentially. So while the numbers went up and thus politicians could say that the economy was improving, the reality is that abstract stock prices seemed to be the only thing that benefited from the government's policies.


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I've moved some of my money into other assets around end of last year, now they're up around 40% (silver among other things). It's a pretty extreme different from the end of last  year. It seems one of the better ways to back up your money. Also would suggest stocking up storable foods, whether you're in Europe or the USA. Doubt it would hurt even if everything ends up alright.

What's funny is that I think four years ago had you suggested this, many people would have thought you crazy or alarmist for doing so. :\
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 11:52:55 am by Unknown Target »

 

Offline Luis Dias

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This does not follow supply/demand theory.

So because Reality doesn't conform to one simplistic model of how markets work, Reality is wrong?

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What's funny is that I think four years ago had you suggested this, many people would have thought you crazy or alarmist for doing so. :\

Or perhaps just gambling.

 

Offline Bob-san

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Oil prices are controlled by speculation. Oil is a commodity--its price is not controlled by supply & demand. Commodity prices are set by commodity traders; foodstuffs is the same way. Higher demand or diminishing supply does factor into the traders' minds but it's not the word of law--it's just the word of theory.
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The oil prices are set by the OPEC countries (AFAIK). The war in Lybia, an important oil source, causes a lack of supply (AFAIK), but the OPEC countries may just drive up the price in order to earn more money.

 

Offline WeatherOp

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Reading from different news sources that they are bracing for S&P to downgrade our credit rating. Makes sense really.
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Offline Unknown Target

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Oil prices are controlled by speculation. Oil is a commodity--its price is not controlled by supply & demand. Commodity prices are set by commodity traders; foodstuffs is the same way. Higher demand or diminishing supply does factor into the traders' minds but it's not the word of law--it's just the word of theory.

Alright, I didn't have that understanding. Thank you for the clarification. :)

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Reading from different news sources that they are bracing for S&P to downgrade our credit rating. Makes sense really.

Well that's going to be fun. And I was just going to apply for a loan soon. :\

  

Offline Polpolion

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Offline Bob-san

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The oil prices are set by the OPEC countries (AFAIK). The war in Lybia, an important oil source, causes a lack of supply (AFAIK), but the OPEC countries may just drive up the price in order to earn more money.
No, OPEC does NOT control the price of oil. OPEC plays a major role in setting the environment and have their own minimum selling prices--which are typically not known. The idea is that if there's no more oil, prices will rise and OPEC will sell again. That's why OPEC does its best to control the supply flowing towards the West. If OPEC wants to sell for $80/barrel and commodity traders want to trade for $60/barrel, then the oil traded will be at $60 and, as its consumed, it becomes scarce. Since oil is a necessity to business operations, commodity traders will Bid increasingly higher until the Ask price is satisfied. The reason OPEC works is that it uses nationalized oil companies. If a non-OPEC supplier (perhaps one in Canada or the Gulf) wants to sell at $60, oil will enter the system and OPEC will temporarily lose sales.

As I said, the laws of supply and demand are the words of theory in a commodities market. OPEC and oil companies DO have a strong position but it's still bidding. Speculators purchase the oil (and they do literally own a barrel of oil) and hold onto it, reselling it when they find it opportune. If you hold onto oil long enough or make your intent clear and allow for logistics to catch up, you'll literally end up with that oil. Nothing illegal about that (though you'll probably pay delivery fees).

Now the interesting thing about oil is that, like many other commodities, there are multiple variations each suited for specific uses. Sweet crude is rarely turned into gasoline because gasoline can be refined from far dirtier crude. That means there's not just a single price-per-barrel but multiple for each variation of both unrefined and refined oil.

The ultimate price man is your gas station; what will Sunoco or Shell or BP or Hess (or anyone else really) sell the gasoline at? They take their own slice and a portion goes towards state taxes (typically into the HWA) and tariffs.



My current view on the new downturn is that the market direly needs to correct itself. Uncertainty is rampant and speculation is causing high volatility. Pending news, I think the best thing you can do on Monday is to Short an oil index and Buy a gold or silver index. Come Wednesday, Cover the oil index and Sell the gold/silver index.

The theoretical chances of a AAA-rated bond being downgraded to AA is typically 6.80%¹. The chances of it being downgraded to D (meaning Default) is negligible; less than a 0.005% chance. Honestly, the USA doesn't have a AAA outlook and really shouldn't have a AAA rating. That's why Moody's/S&P/Fitch want to downgrade the outlook and the current creditworthiness. It won't raise interest rates on outstanding debit and it won't make future borrowing more expensive. The fact is that the any new bonds, bills, or notes issued will be for whatever interest rate is set. What will happen, assuming the new debt has the same interest rate as the recent debt, is that corporations with AAA credit ratings will be more likely to issue bonds with a lower coupon.

1: Fabozzi, Frank J., and Mark Jonathan Paul. Anson. "2: Risks Associated with Investing in Bonds." Fixed Income Analysis. 2nd ed. Hoboken, NJ: Wiley, 2007. 30-31. Print.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 08:01:05 pm by Bob-san »
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Offline Bob-san

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According to S&P, the long-term debt now carries a AA+ rating. It retains a negative outlook. I'm curious as to how Moody's and Fitch will rate the public debt (if they'll change it from Aaa & AAA, respectively). As of 3 days ago, Moody's confirmed the Aaa rating and had a negative outlook. Fitch also confirmed a AAA rating and agrees with Moody's and S&P's outlooks, though seemingly for different reasons.

If I had to speculate, I'd say that the AUD and CHF are the only major currencies that will stay stable. The EUR is in the same situation as the USD, and the JPY is also in danger. The CNY will depend on the effects of reduced exportation and, I think, is rather unpredictable in the long term.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 08:29:32 pm by Bob-san »
NGTM-1R: Currently considering spending the rest of the day in bed cuddling.
GTSVA: With who...?
Nuke: chewbacca?
Bob-san: The Rancor.

 
Ah. The oil price piece was very education, Bob.

I remember the credit rating bureau's getting a lot of flak in the EU because they were all based in the US, and appeared to be biased towards it. Could there be any truth in that? What are all those ratings based on anyway?


 
Well, S&P just lowered the USA AAA status to AA+.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jERhPMzqSaE (couldn't find a better source/link right now, but the news in this case, is the news)

Reminds me of a certain Fed Reserve guy's words:

http://dailybail.com/home/geithner-no-risk-us-will-lose-aaa-credit-rating-ever.html

Ah well.
I'm all about getting the most out of games, so whenever I discover something very strange or push the limits, I upload them here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/JCDentonCZ

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The End of History has come and gone.