[mjn.mixael]

My two cents.

Make sure when you are comparing to retail, that you are truly comparing to retail and not older MediaVPs. Word around town is that 3.6.10 beams were much larger than retail.

EDIT: Also, I'm pretty sure the MediaVPs effects vs retail effects make a noticeable difference in visible size. The point being that simply turning of the resizes in the tables probably won't give you an accurate view of what retail looked like. You should switch to the retail effects as well.

[Commander Zane]

That is a very significant difference in sizes once you actually see every single beam in the same place all at once.

[mjn.mixael]

I would like to see that screen comparison again, except this time with just retail (not MediaVPs effects).

[bigchunk1]

Mvp3612:

Retail:

Mvp pre-3612:

[Hades]

Yeah, as you can tell, my beams are mostly the same size to retail, aside from the glows, and in the latest updates in the FSU SVN (not released), some are bigger...

I can't help but laugh now at everyone saying that they miss the retail's size when it's been right there the whole time.

[Kolgena]

The thickness of the white part (which is mostly what determines apparent beam thickness, since the rest of it is haze/glare) is still thicker in true retail than in yours, which is why lots of us FEEL that the beams got skimpier. Also note that the beam glows themselves are pretty consistent between retail and 3.6.10. They're legit balls of plasma, and not something that looks like a muzzle flash.

But yeah, you're mostly right. The 3.6.10 beams are wtf huge compared to retail. Much more than I thought, at least.

[Hades]

The thickness of the white part (which is mostly what determines apparent beam thickness, since the rest of it is haze/glare) is still thicker in true retail than in yours, which is why lots of us FEEL that the beams got skimpier. Also note that the beam glows themselves are pretty consistent between retail and 3.6.10. They're legit balls of plasma, and not something that looks like a muzzle flash.

But yeah, you're mostly right. The 3.6.10 beams are wtf huge compared to retail. Much more than I thought, at least.

Actually, the only beams, judging from the above shot, that have while in the middle that differs in mine are the Shivan beams, which I'll admit are a little smaller, though they've gotten bigger since any last released tables of my resized beams.

[mjn.mixael]

Yeah, I need to agree with Hades here. The reds coming off the Sath seem to be the only ones I would question, the rest look nearly identical in size. The Vasudan ones look different since we actually have them colored and not all white.

Hades should note how, contrary to his suspicions, I don't shoot down everything he does...

[Skarab]

If you did shoot it down, how thick would the beam be?  Hopefully not as thick as the cables on the mainhall... that'd just be overkill.

[bigchunk1]

Yeah, as you can tell, my beams are mostly the same size to retail, aside from the glows, and in the latest updates in the FSU SVN (not released), some are bigger...

I can't help but laugh now at everyone saying that they miss the retail's size when it's been right there the whole time.

Why not just restore retail data then?


Maybe the difference is in the way the beams are colored. Retail is more or less solid, while mediavps have an outer core and an inner core. From the 3612 table, some inner cores are a little as 3 meters thick, while the outer cores are more wispy and dark. Maybe my mind's eye focuses on the inner core. which makes the beams appear more thin than they used to be.

Also there is still a noticeable difference in the bulb that forms at the turret end.

[Mongoose]

Heh, it's crazy how much those 3.6.10 VPs have affected all of our perceptions. I think the previous MediaVP versions were probably similar to those as well, though, which means we've become used to seeing those sizes over the past few years.  In light of that retail shot, most of the beams look pretty good as-is, with maybe only the BFRed needing a bit of a bump.  I agree with taking another look at the glows, since I think the smaller size on them when compared to retail is a big part of the perception that the beams themselves are too small.

[mjn.mixael]

Why not just restore retail data then?

Maybe the difference is in the way the beams are colored. Retail is more or less solid, while mediavps have an outer core and an inner core. From the 3612 table, some inner cores are a little as 3 meters thick, while the outer cores are more wispy and dark. Maybe my mind's eye focuses on the inner core. which makes the beams appear more thin than they used to be.

Also there is still a noticeable difference in the bulb that forms at the turret end.

You can't be serious..

The Mvps effects look far better than the retail effects....

If you did shoot it down, how thick would the beam be?  Hopefully not as thick as the cables on the mainhall... that'd just be overkill.

Wha.. Why... I... Hmmm... Yeah...

[bigchunk1]

I mean retail beam size data in the tables, of course.

[Zacam]

bigchunk1: They are. Many of our sections for $Section: +BeamWidth: are actually even BIGGER than the Retail settings.
And you can't compare $Section: to $Section. We have more of them and they are sorted differently to mix the effects for blending and layering.

In short: The complaint was that the MediaVPs beams needed to be "more Retail". Well, apparently, they already are.

We are not reverting the beam-glow warm-up/cool-down to Retail. And I see no point in having them look like the 3.6.10, which would be over-sized compared to the Retail sized beams. That said, we seem to have reached a consensus that the beams off the Sathanas arms could use a slight tweak, which will be accomplished.

More than happy to play around with some of the section widths to make a few minor modifications (and make the smaller Shivan beams a little more Red while we are at it), but the -original- complaint is now shown to be null and void, so I'm satisfied that we were able to pre-emptively accomplish it. FSU: Now with Moar Psychic!

[Asteroth]

I think it should be noted that when some people said "I prefer retail sizes as opposed to Hades sizes" they may have meant MVP sizes by 'retail', especially since the poll choices are retail and Hades, and not MVP and Hades. There seems to be a fair amount of miscommunication because of this.

[Zacam]

If people confused 3.6.10 (or earlier) sizes with "Retail", that can be an understandable POV.

However, if people want a restoration of the 3.6.10 sizes, aesthetically, I can't readily agree to that.

[bigchunk1]

But they are not the same, that's the entire point. I tried to make a facetious remark about changing something that does not need to be changed and it backfired. I am concerned now with the realization that a beam with a wide dark outer section looks like a thinner beam compared to one with a full core, like what retail was. As Zacam and Mjn both remarked, the game changed when the beam sections were changed.

Please also check the BFgreen. The beam went off late and I didn't catch it in the screen but it is quite thin. The Bgreen and Bred could also use a look.

...
We are not reverting the beam-glow warm-up/cool-down to Retail.
...

Why not? This is as noticable as any other part of the beam.

I would prefer not to shut this conversation down in a single post, or at least so quickly. It's kind of important. 

Edit: grammar

[Zacam]

Jul 16 [19:13:15] <bigchunk1> Why not?!
Jul 16 [19:13:17] <bigchunk1> http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=77109.40
Jul 16 [19:13:36] <Zacam> Gimme a moment, and I'll answer.
Jul 16 [19:24:11] * BW_ ([email protected]) has joined #hard-light
Jul 16 [19:32:16] <Zacam> K. By the beam glow warm-up, what I mean is that we are not returning back to the Retail version of the effect, and the effect that we have currently will be appropriately scaled to the beam size of the beam it is firing. As for why we are not reverting to previous MediaVPs sizes, because it's ugly. As for "the beam looks thinner cause the white core is skinnier", that is irrelevant. +BeamWidth: for damage and targeting is already set to the Largest
Jul 16 [19:32:16] <Zacam> Retail section width, so the visible effect of either the core or the haze is irrelevant to the damage. That being said, the aformentioned beams (EG: The Sathanas, BFGreen and Mjolnir beam) will be investigated and adjusted if deemed necessary by consensus.
Jul 16 [19:34:59] <bigchunk1> "the effect that we have currently will be appropriately scaled to the beam size of the beam it is firing" what do you mean by this? 3612 size or retail size?
Jul 16 [19:36:59] <Zacam> I mean that the warm up "bulb" size will be sized to the scale of the beam so that there is a seamless transition of one to the other. Also keep in mind that for the shivan beams specifically, the Retail beams used the thruster-glow effect and scaled it well past the durable size of the actual projected beam.
Jul 16 [19:37:24] <bigchunk1> 3612 or retail?
Jul 16 [19:37:45] <bigchunk1> So you mean 3612 stays?
Jul 16 [19:38:49] <Zacam> Considering that the 3.6.10 warmup/beam-glow was scaled to the beam size, but over all both were larger than retail, the .12 beams -for the beam section widths- are the same as retail, and so the scaling of the beam glows will match to the beams themselves.
Jul 16 [19:39:34] <bigchunk1> Lol, I can't decrypt you to get the answer I want
Jul 16 [19:39:50] * Zacam sighs
Jul 16 [19:39:56] <bigchunk1> You want to keep hade's bulb sizes then?
Jul 16 [19:41:17] <Zacam> I want to keep the scaling that they have, yes. If we adjust or increase a beams width (see again, Sathanas, BFGreen, Mjolnir) then the warm-up bulb will adjust to compensate, but having a warm up effect that is 3 times the size of the outer edges it a bit ugly.
Jul 16 [19:41:53] <bigchunk1> Right, then that's what the thread is about
Jul 16 [19:42:05] <bigchunk1> I think the bulb should be larger than the beam
Jul 16 [19:42:13] <bigchunk1> Because that's how retail was
Jul 16 [19:42:22] <Zacam> It is. It's just not gigantically larger than the beam.
Jul 16 [19:42:41] * Antares is now known as v_Zalem
Jul 16 [19:42:49] * v_Zalem is now known as Nu_Zalem
Jul 16 [19:42:50] <bigchunk1> It's prettywell scaled down, and that's a big change in their design
Jul 16 [19:43:03] <bigchunk1> Feels kinda moddish
Jul 16 [19:43:32] <bigchunk1> You want to post that in the thread?
Jul 16 [19:44:26] <bigchunk1> Look at the split on the poll btw, you gota believe something's up
Jul 16 [19:44:39] <Zacam> The actual beam section widths are the same as retail. That the "inner core" doesn't seem as large should actually make the edge color sections cause the beam to stand out. And the beam-glow (again, on the previously mentioned larger beams that are still in process of being adjusted) will see a slight update to them. But the beam-glow/warmup does nothing in terms of anything at all regarding the beams width, it's targeting or it's damage.
Jul 16 [19:45:43] <bigchunk1> I'm not talking beam width anymore, i'm talking bulb size
Jul 16 [19:46:19] <bigchunk1> The bulb/width ratio has been drasticly decreased from retail or media vps
Jul 16 [19:46:25] <Zacam> And the poll had it's LARGEST collection of results PRIOR to the screen shot actually showing that Hades' beams were actually spot on to Retail sive, but now this is a discussion about the beam-GLOW (the warm up/bulb effect) which wasn't clearly dileniated in the OP or conversations until now, as it was all previously just how "the beams" (in general) were "Not Retail" which tells me your nostalgia glasses need a new prescription or you should learn
Jul 16 [19:46:25] <Zacam> the semantics of constructing your arguments better.
Jul 16 [19:47:31] <bigchunk1> Well i'm not good at arguments, I'm just trying to get a fair consensus
Jul 16 [19:47:59] <Zacam> Fair also requires being able to deliver a solidly constructed statement.
Jul 16 [19:48:10] <Zacam> At which point.
Jul 16 [19:48:14] <bigchunk1> Ok, so the bulb thing.
Jul 16 [19:48:30] <bigchunk1> Why so small? that's a design change
Jul 16 [19:48:32] <bigchunk1> and for what?
Jul 16 [19:48:35] <bigchunk1> People are split on it
Jul 16 [19:48:42] <bigchunk1> you can see arguments in the thread
Jul 16 [19:48:46] <bigchunk1> most are against it iirc
Jul 16 [19:48:52] <bigchunk1> and it's against retail
Jul 16 [19:48:53] <Zacam> The only sensible thing to do, is to close up the current thread, and make a new one with a poll that specifically targets (no pun intended) the beam-glow/bulb/warm-up effect size.
Jul 16 [19:49:14] <bigchunk1> Well, give it a day or so
Jul 16 [19:49:21] <bigchunk1> we just posted not a hour ago
Jul 16 [19:49:59] <Zacam> Invalid. I cannot take the results from a poll or a post that started about the "general" beam sizes and then have it turned around to being about the warm-up sizes when that was not -clearly- marked as being the significance of the conversation.
Jul 16 [19:50:13] <bigchunk1> I mean don't lock the thread
Jul 16 [19:50:18] <bigchunk1> So people can respond
Jul 16 [19:50:34] <bigchunk1> Say their piece and all that

With that in mind, I am resetting the poll results back to 0.

What people will be voting on now are the Beam Glow/warm-up/bulb sizes themselves.

[Kolgena]

Going with mixed. The retail beam glows were massive and fugly as hell (see aeolus, fenris), but Hades' glows look more like muzzle flashes than the plasma source of the beam. I'm hoping for a little hike in size for all beam glows relative to their beams, but nothing obnoxious. Perhaps beam glow size could be slightly correlated to charge up time and/or beam duration?

(Oh, and BFRed/BFGreen and Mjolnir beams really need to stay/be made beefy, because their per-pulse damage is insane compared to the other beams. They still need to be smaller than 3.6.10 versions, I suppose)

[pecenipicek]

Retail or bust. Still.

Spoiler:

Hades, be fair to me, i dont shoot down everything you do.